Travis County Commissioners Court
February 21, 2012 (Agenda)
Item 21
>> well, on 21?
consider and take appropriate action on items associated with chapter 45 of the Travis County code to include a, rename chapter 45 of the Travis County code from discounts for use of certain Travis County exposition center facilities by public entities to Travis County exposition center mission, licensing and operations.
and b, replace current content of chapter 45 in its entirety with new content.
>> morning, judge.
roger el khoury, facility management department.
Commissioners court, directors, we had the county attorney work on the policy for the expo center regarding discount and refund.
and today we're here to present a new language to the Commissioners' court.
and this is -- the new language will replace the already chapter 45 of Travis County code which currently is titled discount for use of certain Travis County exposition center facility by public entities.
now, the new chapter is going to be called Travis County exposition center mission, licensing and operation.
and in the backup you have attachment 1, which is -- attachment 1 is also the order to delete the previous language and also add the new language to the court.
now, I would like to go over the new language of chapter 45.
really it is consistent of three subchapters, subchapter a, b and c.
today we would like to discuss subchapter b, which is a discount of use of Travis County expo center by eligible entity and chapter c is the refund.
and subcaptain a, the sky mary mission and goal, we'll defer that for another time.
subchapter b, discount for use of Travis County exposition center facility by eligible entity, it is divided into two categories.
the first one is quasi governmental agency and department.
so the discount may be offered to government or quasi governmental owing or department that meet the cry, the agency or department derives some or all of its funding from Travis County government either by appropriation or contract.
and the agency or department is managed or directed by appoint s of the Commissioners' court or by board or by a board composed of one or more members appointed by the Commissioners' court.
what that means to us is this: the category of eligible enhaiti express include Travis County department, which is nfdtnr and any other department, Travis County corporation, organization of which Travis County is a participating member.
Travis County board and committee.
Travis County road district and emergency service district and similar.
for those entities, government and quasi government agency, the available discount would be remember recommending to be 50%.
for sheriff organization the discount might be offered to an entity organized and operating as a tax exempt organization under 501(c)3 of the internal revenue code.
and then to be eligible for discount under this category an organization must provide up to date documentation of valid 501(c)3 status to the expo center director.
prior to receiving the discount.
and the discount rate for charitable organization are based on the organization's primary service area.
here it is.
as you look at the available discount for the charitable organization, if that organization have in Travis County its primary service area, we are recommending 25% discount.
if that charitable organization have its primary service area other than Travis County, 10%.
these are basically, briefly, what have under the subchapter b discount for use of Travis County exposition center facility by a charitable entity, I would like to emphasize on one thing here is the discount apply only for the facility rental rate.
it does not apply to a condition system to custodial, to table, chairs, any of those issues.
it's only for that rate of the rental.
let's say if a department want to do an employee -- an employee appreciation day, for instance, at the expo center for the banquet hall, the eight is $1,800.
they will budget in their budget to pay the eight percent or $900.
so this way we need to keep and operate on the profit over there rather than to just give free.
so that's what would be a department.
and then if, like for instance in another department would be esd number 1, 2, 3, 45:00.
they have classes over there.
we'll ask them to budget in their annual budget for this kind of event for rental facility, 50% of the 1800, which is $900.
so those are -- the new language is really identify every department under what category they can budget their -- to pay the expo center for the use of the expo center.
so this is the available discount for chapter b.
and subchapter c, it's a refund policy.
we've been talking about the refund policy for -- now finally we come up with this policy.
it's a process.
under 45.023 subchapter c, and when we're saying that I need a refund less than a thousand dollars.
it can be acted on by staff, but meaning that it has to be check and balance.
the director of expo center recommends renting or not granting, but it has to be approve by the director of facility management department.
so there's a check and balance right there.
and of course, under the eyes of the county executive.
the other one it would be for the -- for the refund, if any refund comes more than $1,000 it will come to the Commissioners' court for approval.
let me give you an example.
for instance, if the air conditioning system at the arena stopped right there and we have to give a refund to the promoter because he got some kind of hardship because of that air conditioning system, it will be more than a thousand dollars.
so we would come to the court and ask the court to give us permission to refund certain number after knowing.
this is an example.
so -- after negotiation.
this is an example.
and for refund policy if we deny a person requesting a refund, even less than a thousand dollars, that person still have the appeal to come to the Commissioners' court for that.
so we always try to focus right there that the business can be taken care of at the expo center, but the ultimate decision will come back to the Commissioners' court.
>> so both of these provisions will streamline the process?
>> yes.
and we recommend it highly.
my experience and everybody will send us we want a discount, we want a discount.
we cannot struggle with them, should we give them a discount or not?
but if we have a policy really written don and we pinpoint to it right there, then it will be easier for us to manage the expo center on the policy.
not to say that any other -- any other category is not in the discount and the Commissioners' court wish to give a discount there, we come back to the court and talk about that.
but what I'm saying here, if you look at the number three discount, the roman three under 45012 available discount a, we don't want that.
I recommend not to have that in the policy.
like other discount percentage to be recommended by the director and recommended by the Commissioners' court, we should not have that.
we should pinpoint exactly under roman 1 and roman 2.
>> I see.
so what you're asking for is that there be a bright line rule, 1 and 2, and not have the discretion in fmd for any other percentage to be discounted without Commissioners' court approval.
>> right.
I just want to streamline the process over there and make it easier for everybody to know how one plus one equal two and that sort of thing.
>> so do we define what an eligible refund request is?
>> yeah.
it's on page 2, judge, on the government -- the government agency.
>> okay.
I'm looking at subchapter c.
>> okay.
yeah.
we don't have that many coming, judge.
as they come, you know, really there's no -- for instance, in the past two years I get only two refunds, less than $500.
one of them 250 coming to the Commissioners' court.
really there's no extended or repeated event right there that we have to give a refund.
so as it comes we'll look into it.
like for instance if somebody want to -- what happened before that the charitable organization booked the event and they pay the deposit, which is probably $250.
and somehow it happened that they could not continue with the event or hold the event.
so they ask for that $250 to be refunded right there.
so that situation I think we can refund that.
I don't think it's a big deal.
>> whereas subchapter b is which organizations we want to provide a discount on the c.
subchapter c is applicable to anybody because something happened that was unexpected for which they're asking a refund.
>> exactly.
>> so it might be a charitable organization, it might be a totally for profit organization that for reasons beyond their control aren't able to have event.
>> absolutely.
absolutely.
the example I give is one that happened to us before.
>> typically we're talking about deposits.
it's kind of like a rental deposit, right?
>> yes, sir.
>> you place the deposit, you come back the next day and say I change my mind, you're probably all right f they hold that for you a month or two and they don't have a right to lease it to somebody else, typically what they claim is loss of rentals.
they don't give you 100% -- they don't return 100% of what you gave them.
so wouldn't we be better off if we were able to point to specific criteria that we use to either grant or deny a deposit?
>> we can, judge.
>> because in my view it kind of depends on when you ask for a return of the deposit.
if we have taken steps that cause us either to spend money or lose money, then I guess I would be less inclined to refund 100% of what you deposited.
but it seems to me good to be able to point to a specific language because that way you sort of make it contractual.
>> yeah, we tried to fill in some of that in the discretionary authority of the expo center director.
and then roger and you wouldly the court to determine what -- ultimately the court to determine whether the refund shun should be granted or not.
but you're right there's no stated criteria.
when we were considering this there were so many types of situations in which a refund request could be submitted, we thought it -- it better just to sort of outline the process.
and if there's unfairness or a claim of unfairness, then they could always come back to the Commissioners' court.
but we can definitely come up with broad criteria.
>> yes.
we'll come back to it.
judge, we will come back to it and we'll give you some criteria and we'll refund the deposit and that would be good.
it would be better for us right there to have the guidelines right there on what to have.
and yeah, we'll come back in about a couple of weeks if you don't mind, judge, two weeks.
>> that's fine with me.
>> would you all be comfortable with making a decision on subchapter b independent from subchapter c?
>> I think that would be great for us because that sets things in motion for all the -- for all the discount and from here on.
>> excuse me.
I just want to making sure that if the court is prepared to act on subchapter b I would just ask that there was a typo in subchapter -- subsection 45011 a and it should say in similar entities.
and then as roger explained, we would want to delete 45012-a, roman numeral iii.
so if you do approve it on the spot with those changes.
>> just from that standpoint I had a question on 45.012-a, the first sentence, because it read to me a little bit like there was only expo center facilities are subject to discounts.
didn't roger say that the actual facility fee was subject to discount and not the -- I mean, it seems that I guess I'd like some clarity.
>> [overlapping speakers].
>> the building and the fees associated with all these other amen it is.
but it is a facility fee, rental fee.
>> this is our reputation, yes, sir, Commissioner, just the rental for the building itself.
>> perhaps that needs to be clarified in that sentence.
>> okay.
>> if I may, I had a couple other questions.
the refund stuff I will be so glad for.
it is a process that we really don't need to be -- having in court on a regular basis.
but on the discount portion, which I have no problem with the schedules.
I think we need -- we have a mission here at Travis County for facilitating nonprofits and discounting fees for the things that are in sync with our services.
my overriding question is what is our mission for the expo center?
are we looking to provide this facility primarily so that we can discount many, many, many events that service the community?
or are we looking at a combination so that we don't ultimately end up on a loss operating basis?
and I'd like to know a clarity of our mission on that.
to me the mission and policy goals are equally important as the pieces.
and what is our business plan?
I mean, I'm looking at the questions that Commissioner Eckhardt had some answers on here.
>> I apologize for --
>> which I did a quick read on, so I might not have read them well.
>> they were very promptly answered by facilities management.
and I was tardy in passing them on to you all as backup.
I couldn't pass them on before of the it was backup, however, because that would be a violation, but I could have passed them on earlier.
>> so I guess before I could feel comfortable moving forward with b, I would like to see things like what is our mission discussed.
I would like to see a listing in addition to events that we're discounting those that we're actually -- those we've had in the last few years that have actually paid the full amount.
and also I would like to see the plan, a business plan for it, but in general, but also the capital improvements plan associated with that because a good business plan, whether in keeping with a mission whether it's for purely to support the nonprofits or to have a profitable business out there, we need to have a good capital improvements program.
we know that we're competing with other facilities for a pull paying interest, and it's important that we have a plan that underwrites that.
otherwise we are seriously subsidizing a facility.
so to summarize, I personally would like to see us define the mission for the expo center.
I'd like to see a business plan for it.
and as it relates to any specific decision that we may be making on b immediately, I would like to see the listing of the -- those for profit entities.
and -- not for profit.
those that are paying full fees.
and also the capital improvements plan because I think we get in a vicious circle if we keep doing a whole lot of discounting and we're not programming in revenues that will help with capital improvements.
facilities like this generally have a percentage of a fee allocated to capital improvements fund.
so I think just to be good managers of this we ought to take a look at.
this.
>> it might be an option to explore one of the takeaways I had from the information that I fall on my sword to have provided late, is that on page 2 where is says fiscal 11, the annual profits from the expo center, and this is wonderful news, was $79,462, but if you also look at the spreadsheet you see that we forewent $60,875,000 in fees.
and based on a separate email from roger -- and again, roger was extremely prompt in providing this information -- is that for that same year we only leased 55% of the capacity.
so we could-- we could have a much more robust plan for the expo center.
depending on how we want to use it.
>> I'd also like to point out on your page two, where it says what is the annual profit from the expo and the next one what are the annual ongoing costs for the expo, I would like to see the p and l statements, but also what is represented here is that from '08 to '11 we have a declining revenue and yet on the profit -- and yet on the ongoing cost we have basically what's pretty much an increasing cost schedule.
so that's not a good indicator.
for instance, there are some expenses more -- for instance, we had lots of issue with air conditioning system.
so we have to pay light there out of our expenses.
so that's how things can come out.
overall, Commissioner, let me mention that for the last four years that the expo center is completely of subsidy.
everything has been supporting itself for everything over there.
plus making a little profit.
right now the expo center fund balance can be valuefidely the bpo is $1,174,000.
which is is pretty good.
if I say 55%, Commissioner Eckhardt, that's how much percent is used of the expo.
as you see we made a profit and it was only booked 55%.
steve and I are working on a marketing manager position over there.
so we will come back more to the court for more information.
I mean, we are going in the right track, I believe,.
lloyd evan and myself running the expo at this time instead of our own work just to make sure everything is running right direction and now we're ready to get a marketing managers to market that facility.
we have a really two competitive rate now is Cedar Park and (indiscernible).
>> we have a subcommittee also and of course I want to make sure that that is not to the point where this should, I think, at some future date come before the expo subcommittee.
and of coursic we have a lot of maybe some tweaking or whatever, but I would like to have the opportunity to let this come before the subcommittee before we move forward.
I encourage that first.
>> we'll come to the expo center subcommittee on some of the issues.
>> I want to clarify some thing.
the cost that you're saying that we -- we're not being subsidized to that includes the cost of staff.
>> the Commissioners' court gives us 125-dollar subsidy, but after 2007 everything is supported by itself.
>> but it doesn't include the cost of county staff that have other jobs.
for instance, yourself.
it doesn't include the percentage of your time.
and that I think probably needs to be taken into consideration ultimately.
but I totally appreciate that this was -- this was a calculation based on hard numbers that were reachable at the time, but we ought to calculate the percentage of Travis County staff time that does expo center things as well.
most of my time at the expo center is after hours or Saturday.
most of the time I'm there.
>> but you're an exempt employee so you don't get paid overtime.
>> the point I'm saying is we have other staff handling the expo center very well.
the staff over there, they're good at what they're doing.
>> it's much improved.
it's much improved.
>> sherri fleming, county executive for Travis County services and veteran services.
I would ask during your consideration of this policy my comment have to do with those projects that might be by department, for department employees.
my department used the banquet hall, I believe, for several years for an all-department retreat.
it had been at that time part of your contract with your food provider that any food provision at the expo center had to be purchased from that individual.
I can certainly appreciate that for things like volunteer banquets and things hike that where we're bringing in the public, but in circumstance which are programs or trainings by departments where those costs of any food items will be passed on to employees because we aren't permitted to use county funds to provide lunches for staff and that sort of thing, it can be a hardship because of having to deal with a particular caterer.
so I would just ask that we would consider while we're looking at this policy an exemption for departments doing programs that are for employees.
so not necessarily -- I can appreciate the -- you know, the other public functions that might have made it necessary to have such a provision, but I'm talking about those activities by your departments for your employees.
>> may I mention one thing on this?
regarding the caterer, the food and beverage and all, sure every beverage has to go through gm catering, no question about that.
but the food, there is a language in the license agreement that says we can -- if a promoter want to have a function right there, the director has the authority to say that the food can be brought by the promoters, not buy it from gm catering.
so we do have a provision in the license agreement to say that.
>> yeah, that's correct.
there's an -- in the director's discretion.
if the request is received to use an outside caterer, we can grant that.
the exemption is alcoholic beverages.
>> the catering dollars come mainly from water, soda, alcoholic beverage and all.
most of the time.
>> now, as far as the (indiscernible), in my reading this policy doesn't cover what she's talking about because if it is Travis County use, for Travis County employees, that's an internal use that doesn't fall into this.
that would come to Commissioners' court and say sherri wants to use the expo center for training program.
is that okay with the Commissioners' court.
is that right?
>> it hasn't come to the Commissioners' court.
I think generally it during the week and if there's not another expo -- if there's not a paying customer for that time, then we've been granted with a small interdepartmental transfer for -- for cleaning or something like that.
and I appreciate having that information.
I can just tell you that we have looked for other spaces because the catering issue has been an issue.
and so I'm not sure if there were sort of personalities involved in that, but I can just tell you that it would certainly go a long way for those of us who have large departments, need a larger space to have an all-department meeting, if that exemption would be considered.
>> so where do you get lunch now?
>> well, we have -- we have purchased it from the caterer at one time and then since that time we've looked at other venues.
so we haven't been back in several years.
>> so caterer, if you were there an the caterer didn't provide, I guess, lunch, where would you get it?
>> well, there was one opportunity when we first did this where the agrilife folks with a small contribution by staff prepared the meal on-site.
but then there apparently was a change -- and we're talking about use over several years.
there apparently was a change that prohibited us from doing that.
>> because of the catering contract.
>> is that true?
>> if the department would not be required to contract, to sign an expo center license agreement, then that wouldn't apply.
so I'm not sure of the facts.
>> do we provide -- we provide exceptions.
I specifically recall like boy scouts or something like that had an event out there.
not only what they said was that they would provide lunch and refreshments for their people, but they would not be selling it.
do you see what I'm saying?
and the distinction there is they wouldn't be competing against the concessionaire because they were not selling it, but giving it to the participants.
it seems to me it should be easy to do.
an exception where if you had 100 county employees, at lunchtime if you have lunch brought in and served, or for that matter prepared out there if you have places to prepare it, I don't know why the concessionaire wouldn't be supportive of that.
I know they have agreed with the boy scouts and things like that.
>> as long as they don't sell to spectators and all of that stuff.
just for their own participant and their own employee.
yes, the caterer would not mind on that.
>> because if you're selling stuff you're compete against the concessionaire and against Travis County too because we get a percentage of what the concessionaire generates.
>> but we generally provide lunch for staff and they might pay five dollars, for example.
that goes into the cost of delivering the meal for that particular day.
and so it has varied from year to year.
and that's why I felt it important to raise this issue because it has ultimately discouraged us from using the expo center for this function.
and we've not had it in a couple of years, but last year we had it we were trying to have it someplace else.
>> okay.
I would ask one thing, Commissioner, judge, that what we're proposing today is that you all approved the discounts and the refund policy.
the things that Commissioner Huber had mentioned, which I totally agree with developing a business plan or mission, our goals, and even another step further, developing that position for marketing purposes, I think that there's a slight -- maybe a slight risk of going forward with the refund or with the discount and the refunds without that, but it's pretty small, I think, risk.
and if we can disapprove these -- approve these discounts and refund policies now, it would be good.
we will work with these other things and work with the expo center committee.
>> I think there's enough new here that it will take another week.
I don't know that yesterday's holiday didn't help any.
I would like another week even if we bring the policies back.
and on the business plan, capital investment plan and mission and goals are we taking more time on that?
is that okay?
>> we need more time on that.
>> my concern is when is it going to come before the expo subcommittee.
we normal like to see things --
>> within the next week or two.
we're trying to have a meeting for just that dialogue.
the things that Commissioner Eckhardt brought to our attention plus what Commissioner Huber just mentioned.
it will be coming to you and the judge.
>> I just have one question of clarity.
does everyone pay a deposit regardless of whether they're getting a discounted fee or not?
>> yes.
they pay a deposit on a discounted number.
>> we roll the deposit into the total rentals?
>> receipt.
right.
if they want to pay an event solid they have to pay the deposit.
once the deposit is set that deposit is not refundable.
so we can set the date.
we cannot market it for any other event.
so that's -- what happened is it's a 20% of the total balance.
and 30 days before the event, within 30 days, we will get the balance, the total balance before the event happened.
under no circumstances we have any event.
we don't have a balance ahead of time.
>> okay.
any more questions, comments?
we'll have it back on next week to look at the policies.
but on the other stuff whatever time we need to take, we take on that.
>> okay.
>> thank you, judge, Commissioner.
>> thank y'all.
with that I move that we recess until 130.
>> second.
>> all in favor?
that passes by unanimous vote.
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