Travis County Commissioners Court
February 14, 2012 (Agenda)
Item 19
>> no.
19, consider and take appropriate action on options regarding installation of dedication plaques upon completion of public buildings.
>> good morning judge, Commissioners, steve manila and john carr from facilities management, and roger, of course, from facilities management.
we were asked to take a look at our plaque policy a while ago, and I wanted john to go ahead and explain to you, you know, what process we used and the options that we believe are available for consideration, and it could be any number of things that we come up with and it could be as modified by you.
there's any number of ways to do this.
if you don't mind I'd like john to go ahead and explain how we went through this process.
>> good morning, Commissioners, john carks facilities.
I'm passing out a larger version and attachment to the one that came in your backup.
it's pretty small and hard to read, but it's exactly the same.
as steve mentioned, last October we came forward to the court seeking approval of dedication plaque for the smart building and the grand opening ceremony, and at that point we advised the court that we were conducting a survey of our counties and municipalities to see what their process and practices were regarding dedication plaques.
we've completed that survey now.
what we reached out to was the nine largest counties in Texas.
of course travis is one of those so the other nine large counties.
and we also reached out to three cities that we found had some information for us.
the questions that we asked each of the counties is included in your backup as attachment 1, and then at the attachment 2 and also that spreadsheet that I just passed out is the results of the survey.
what we found is that of the other nine large counties in Texas, eight of them confirmed that they do routinely place dedication plaques on their completed buildings.
only dallas county mentioned that they do not.
of the eight counties installing plaques only harris has a -- county has a formal policy in place.
the remaining counties do it more as an informal procedure similar to what Travis County was doing.
of the three cities that we reached out to was Austin, city of
>> [inaudible] and el paso.
they all installed dedication plaques and have formized their policies in a bulletin or as a formal resolution.
if you would look at the spreadsheet I passed out, the contents of the plaques varied somewhat between the different counties.
there are some commonalities.
all of them appear to incorporate the elected board, the Commissioners court.
some of them also included the
>> [inaudible] general contractor and the dedication date, and while the other ones would add the entries for the department that was housed in the new building.
but it varied quite a little, but there was a consistency of at least the elected board was included, and then normally the date of dedication and the general contractor and architect/engineer.
we can go into that a little bit further if you like in a moment.
attachment 3 of your backup is a sample of the plaque that Travis County has been bringing forward for about the past 12 years.
the process in Travis County actually, we've kind of looked back and as far as we can tell the first one that we're aware of was the garner betts dedication which occurs, I think about 14 -- maybe 14 1/2 years ago.
and also we mentioned that it's not just dedication plaques on the human marion sweat courthouse, if you go over and look at it.
the original was not a dedication plaque but there is a cornerstone on the building from 1930, and it was built, and who built it.
>> what are our
>> [inaudible] generally for plaques?
>> plaques range quite significantly among the counties.
some of them said that their plaques were 300 up to $500.
other ones said that theirs were 3,000 up to $5,000.
just depends on the size and the content.
>> what are our costs --
>> Travis County is about 3,000 --
>> pardon me?
>> $3,000 per plaque.
>> per plaque?
>> yes.
>> what's the difference in price?
I mean, I notice that harris county caps theirs at between 500 and 750.
what is -- what's the explanation for the -- I mean, what are you buying when you're buying a more expensive plaque?
>> it's primarily the material used, ma'am.
>> what material do we use?
>> we normally use bronze.
>> yeah, it's a bronze, and also the size, about 34-inch wide and then 32-inch high.
>> so if we --
>> the size and the material.
I'm not sure what harris's -- type of material they're using and the size.
>> so if we standardize plaques smaller with lesser expensive but durable material?
>> you could.
>> one other point, most of the counties were incorporating the plaque in their general contractor scope of work, so it was included as part of his bid to provide the plaque with the building.
so it was incorporated in the project.
at Travis County we have tended to pay for it out of the the project budget that the county procured separately.
>> and the shape of Travis County is a little bit more
>> [inaudible] than the others won.
if you look at the seal in the front and in the middle you put the rest of it, add a little bit to the cost of it.
but again, it can be doable -- if you want to go to the plaque, you know, in the future, doable any way --
>> as long as we have the seal breaking the four walls of the plaque, is that why?
>> yes.
>> but if the seal were incorporated into the fall walls of the plaque, that would be a less expensive methodology?
>> right.
>> so there's -- the question that we were hoping to get answered today are, do you want to continue this?
and we haven't heard anybody that wanted to discontinue the practice.
so assuming you do want to do that.
under what circumstances would you want to place a plaque on a building?
we have all kinds of different sizes of buildings, and in some cases in the survey we did, it was observed that they do it by dollar value.
well, that doesn't necessarily warrant a plaque, anymore, anyhow.
to me it would have to be something unique, a first of its kind type of thing, but that, of course, is you all's call.
if you do decide to place it, how deep into the ranks do you go to put names on it?
we could go on and on and on.
there's all kinds of people involved with projects.
and then finally, we don't do these very frequently, maybe once every year or two, and the next one in talking to these guys, it might be five years before this comes up again.
do you want us to bring it to court for to you make the decision or do you want to leave it in our hands to do that?
>> well, how do we --
>> go ahead.
>> the thing about the smart building and -- which I think was worth putting the plaque on, was the fact that it's a -- you all did a terrific job, it's a leed building, and I think that that needs to certainly be, you know, something that the public needs to know that we're doing.
and the other thought that occurred to me was that our kids in school, you know, are asked sometimes about, you know, certain buildings -- they don't know, but they rely on us adults telling them, well, there's the courthouse.
well, there's this other building.
well, how do you -- who built it?
well, you know, let's go look at the plaque.
and so I don't want us to forget that part of it for the future, and have -- we don't know what children are going to learn in school.
we hope that they get out in public and go see about their government and things that people do at the Commissioners court level, you know, so this is one of the things that I think we need to kind of maintain for the future.
and I want it to be durable.
I want it to look nice.
if we have a nice building, that's our goal, to have nice-looking buildings and modern and are doing all of those things that Austin/Travis County likes to do.
you know, and so I would think that the contractor certainly wants credit for having worked on a building like that and, you know, have people go and admire it, who built this?
well, you know, let's advertise it.
who was on the court who approved this?
I think that's there.
and so somewhere -- I think we're going to have to come to a compromise as to, you know, not only the size but the -- probably the price, but I think we need to keep those things in mind for the future.
>> I have a couple questions.
so how do we determine when to install a dedication plaque?
>> when to install?
>> yeah, how do we make that decision?
>> okay.
we -- we come to the court -- after we find out -- after we finish the buildings, you know, construction, we talk to the users, and what time they're going to move in and those kinds of things.
and then we come to the court -- we ask the court, you know, for that specific date there for the dedication and the grand opening.
so we come to the court on a -- that's the practice, and put that agenda on the court, a, is to have the dedication -- the content of the plaque and approve the plaque and, b, is to approve the grand opening for that particular facility.
so that's what the practice is.
>> so it's a case by case deal?
>> only for new construction.
renovation project doesn't have the plaque on it, and new construction --
>> [inaudible] mentioned, we don't have the new construction plaque erected and all of that in five years, but that -- the practice is for every new building, you know, in Travis County, you know, facility.
>> so for plaques that we dedicated, the Commissioners court has approved them?
>> right.
right.
everything on the plaque has to come to the court for approval.
the content, the names, the shape, the size, the whole
>> [inaudible] would come to the court on that.
>> did we just happen upon a $3,000 plaque or did we --
>> well, some of them, the plaque is less.
you know, let me say that.
one of them cost us 1,500 for two buildings.
one of them, I would say del valle clinics, those are brand-new clinics over there, and it's -- the plaque is only about $1,500 because it's smaller in size.
you know, so --
>> but the number of words doesn't matter as much as the size of the plaque?
>> right.
>> so if I were to have a -- our goal were to have a quality plaque as modestly priced as possible, how long would it take us to make that determination?
and what I'm shooting at is a Travis County plaque that is pretty much the same size, where we recognize pretty much the same categories of professionals other than the court.
do you see what I'm saying?
I mean, could we arrive at that in a week or two?
>> we can contact some manufacturers of these things.
there's not that many out there and see what their price range -- there may be a subtle change in material, that might knock it down quite a bit.
>>
>> [inaudible] the cost for the richard scott precinct 1 office building.
it looked like that building and the tax office building -- looked like those plaques are about the same size.
are they pretty consistent as far as price on those two buildings?
>> the price is consistent because the smart building and richard t.
scott are similar, similar price, similar size.
but you see, you qees -- if you have more names on that squeeze more names in there, have them on the same size, squeeze more names in there.
>> you just have less names.
>> but it seems to me that our policy ought to say that for the new county building we have a regular size plaque and we decide what that is.
but on a building that is more of a monument, let's say you spend $250 million on a building, I'm not sure that the plaque that you use on the one that cost 2 million would be appropriate.
also, if there's a large building downtown, you may want to put the plaque inside rather than the plaques -- plaques have been outside, haven't they?
so I think the court ought to leave itself the flexibility to deviate but we ought to have a standard plaque, in my view.
>> uh-huh.
>> so, judge.
>> I like the standard plaque, just the artistry of it, the idea.
but I just want to say that I do have some concerns in equity and balance in who is listed on the plaque.
and I think that since these buildings are funded by taxpayer money, that I actually would like to see a small committee put together with perhaps several outside taxpayers and several internal staffing to come up with scenarios for content.
I can see where content needs to change from building to building.
one of the questions you personally asked for me was like, are we going to put them on renovations versus new construction?
I mean, the question is hanging out there right now is we have 700 la vac a it's going to be our main building.
it's a renovation.
will -- lavaca.
will we put a dedication plaque on it or not?
I think we see a lot of variety in structures for these plaques.
but I personally have a problem when we have several staff people mentioned multiple times on a plaque and others who participated significantly in the process not mentioned at all.
so I don't know how we arrive at equity there and balance, but I think I'd like a little more information or a little more research into it so come up with some recommendations.
I mean, we have the sample that's here today, but there's not any rationale about why that's appropriate.
I'd like to see some rationale about why this content is appropriate.
there actually were -- in the backup information that you did, there's some pretty good consistency across those represented, and there was no collective recommendation related to that, and I think perhaps we should be presented with some more concrete choices that are backed up with rationale.
>> do we want to kick this to the Travis County historical commission?
>> might not be a bad idea.
>> that's a great idea.
>> I think they're looking for additional work.
>> [laughter]
>> it also appears that we have more categories of names on ours than is the norm, which may also be driving the size, hence the cost.
>> does our plaque look similar to the city of Austin?
I've seen the city of Austin plaques wrefer.
>> yeah, city of Austin -- building, they put the plaque -- it depends on the -- depends on how the project cost, you know, like if it's less than 385,000, the city manager can make a decision.
if it's more, the council member will do.
yeah, most of their buildings.
>> but I'm kind of looking at the consistency.
I've seen some of their plaques and they have the governing board on there and then I think they do have engineers and they have the contractor.
>> they do.
they do.
>> in the handout there's -- they tell you who they put on there and it's quite a list.
>> uh-huh.
>> yeah.
>> we'll probably want to look at that plaque since we compared ourselves -- since we surveyed them.
>> why don't we touch base with the Travis County historical commission.
>> yeah, that's --
>> I guess the good government purpose would be historical significance, right?
>> uh-huh.
>> so I think that justifies at least asking them and seeing if they would be interested in working with us on it.
>> okay.
>> which one of you all have a good working relationship with the historical commission?
>> we do.
>> we do.
>> [laughter]
>> I'll contact them.
>> why don't we do that.
we can give general direction to do that and have it back on the court's agenda.
if we can get an answer to that in a week or two, we'll formally direct --
>> look into consistency and cost, yeah, cost.
>> now, do we have a -- we have purchased many of these plaques, I take it, and so do we have like a standard purchasing -- purchase order that we've used?
>> well, our purchase order is always
>> [inaudible] no, I don't recall any kind of standardization.
>> we've been leaving this to the contract?
>> no, no, it's a purchase order for the
>> [inaudible] the company a purchase order, and they do that and fabricate it and install.
the $3,000 is not only for
>> [inaudible], it is for the design and fabrication and installation.
>> may be good to show them exactly were we've been giving a contractor to get it done.
I think that -- can we do that in just two weeks, or one?
>> two weeks.
>> okay.
the item will be back on the 28th of February of this year.
and we were asked -- anything else?
we were asked by its to be available for a picture shortly before noon.
so I move that we recess until 1:30.
we have another item plus -- two more items plus executive session this afternoon.
all in favor.
that passes by unanimous vote.
and its, we're available, the its is right there.
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