Travis County Commissioners Court
Tuesday, August 2, 2011 (Agenda)
Item 5
>> number 5 is to consider and take appropriate action regarding the exterior improvements to the heman marion sweatt courthouse, a, a new project to improve the exterior lighting and landscape of the hms courthouse.
and b, authorize source funding to cover such improvements.
>> good afternoon, judge, roger el khoury.
portion a has a full component to it.
the first component is this -- that over the years the exterior condition for the heman marion sweatt courthouse have deteriorated.
and especially the landscaping.
and we suffer through many long summers and many of the trees have died out or are in decline.
many of the planting that remain are substandard and not appropriate for the facility.
this is -- the landscape, our estimate on that is 75,000, including all the landscape and irrigation system.
the second portion of it is exterior walls.
right now the exterior walls are in need of a cleaning.
and those limestone enclosures need to be cleaned by special trade.
so our estimate on that is an $82,000.
we put it through the budget process for fy '12, but if the court approve our request today, we will strike that item from our budget request.
and the third component of it is lightning.
the lighting of heman marion sweatt is really not good.
we need to upgrade it to good lighting so we can have that facility which deserve a better look.
the fourth component of it is the landscape architect.
we need to hire a landscape architect to really give it a professional landscape design so we can have a good improvement to that facility.
and that would be about $30,000 we're estimating.
so the total request we're asking right here is about like $241,000.
and that money we're asking, that money not to come from allocated reserve.
it's to approve it from an intecial project which we have -- internal project which we have a real saving to be transferred from that project into this new heman marion sweatt.
so this way we're not hitting the allocated reserve and that sort of thing.
>> and the outside one when it's cleaned is sand blasting.
>> it is sand blasting, but it's got to be done properly.
it cannot be anybody just going and doing that work.
it's an historical building, so we need to keep it up.
those limestone are very delaware cat.
we did that in 1998 and 1997.
that's the last time we cleaned the outside.
in the past years, in fy '02, fy '02 and fy 5, we have request for reman marion sweatt and it was not approved.
so really we're trying to come to the court in whatever we have in savings right there to make it happen.
and this time we have a great saving from a project.
we can really take care of all of it at this time.
go ahead.
>> sorry, roger.
leslie strickland with facilities management.
I worked on the specifications and project management for our last cleaning of the building exterior.
we must perform that in accordance with the Texas historical commission guidelines for the historic courthouse preservation.
as roger said the limestone is soft.
we do not sand blast, we do not use high pressure.
it's low pressure.
and --
>> mostly it's with a brush and hand.
and it requires swing stage and some scaffolding of the building.
if you remember back when we did it before, it took about two -- a month and a half to two months' time to move across the building.
and it requires people with appropriate experience in cleaning historic stone buildings.
and we did have appropriate experience last time and would expect to get the same the next time.
>> I just don't think we knew that because I remember the 70's, I believe it was sand blasted.
>> and that was found to be the destructive technique on the soft stone.
so sand blasting is out.
that's not the current practice in historic preservation practice and technology.
>> okay.
>> so these particular folks that you have selected, if the court approves it -- if the court decides to approve this particular transaction, you do have the necessary experience to protect the integrity of the historic nature of the heman marion sweatt courthouse, am I correct?
>> we have not selected someone yet, but when we do, they will.
>> okay.
because you mentioned specific, I guess, guidelines that must be adhered to as far as historical commission folks, as far as protection and maintaining the integrity.
>> and in fact, we have to submit our specifications for the cleaning to the Texas historic commission and they validate that we are doing the right thing.
>> okay.
so it's --
>> go ahead.
>> so it's a process or a procedure that needs to be followed according to dealing with the integrity of the building, the outside and whatever that is, that must be adhered to going through this process of cleaning that particular area, is that correct?
>> yes, sir, that's correct.
>> all right.
so if the court decides to move in that direction, and which we don't know yet, but if the court decides to move in this direction, how long would it take -- do we have a list of vendors, somebody to actually do that, have a reputation of dealing with historical buildings to make sure that integrity of the building is enhanced?
>> I think the process is going to be taking longer than any other project because it has to go to the historical committee and all of that.
>> so that's part of the process also.
>> right, right.
>> okay, okay.
okay, thank you.
>> two questions.
one is that $241,000, is that the total amount of the leftover money from the other project?
>> that's correct.
>> so did we have a list of needed improvements from which we worked and concluded that the three or four recommended today are at the top of the priority list?
>> this is on the outside.
we have some improvement always we do every year on the inside of heman marion sweatt.
and every year we have about like --
>> let me ask you this then: say we've got $241,000.
and we want to use it in the best way possible to improve the heman marion sweatt courthouse.
see what I'm saying?
would we go to the recommended projects and find them at the top of our list of needed improvements?
it was meant to be a softball, but it was kind of -- that's kind of my way of asking shouldn't we really stop and take a real good look at what we need to do to improve the building, try to prioritize them and then use the $241,000 starting as best we can at the top and working our way towards the bottom?
because I'm hearing you say 241,000 now.
this time next year we may well be looking at other requests, right?
>> well, judge, let me put it this way.
first, every year we have about $150,000, 125, 150.
we have up to 150,000-dollar every year improvement on the he man marion sweatt.
that's been approved by the court for the last five years.
this is for small things for the judges in their suite and all of that stuff.
and in the past for the past three or four years we spend about $2.7 million inside the he man marion sweatt for all the mechanical system.
we change all the air conditioning unit and the boiler and we did it in four phases.
so really the main thing on the inside is done.
the only thing would be -- and with those improvements we're getting every year for the inside of the he man marion sweatt.
now, really we need to take care of the outside.
this is what I'm saying, judge.
>> okay.
but the landscape consultant will only do landscape analysis.
or will we do severing external to the building?
>> everything external to the building.
landscape architect down there, we will have the irrigation system, the landscape and also the lighting.
and also we can include with that the cleaning.
>> well, I guess -- my recommendation would be that we bring that person on board, let him or her finish the work, and then we start working on that list.
see what I'm saying?
or should we assume that the exterior wall should be at the top of the list?
>> top of the list from everything?
>> top of the list for spending $241,000.
>> it is.
it should be because we need to look nice, start getting the dark coloration on the courthouse, we need to clean it up.
I think it is a priority to have that cleaned.
>> so would you include the lighting and all this other of that --
>> so what would the 30,000-dollar consultant do now?
>> the landscape design is going to require understanding of the historic requirements of the Texas historic commission.
including a restoration of the grounds.
on top of that, the plan will also have to take into account the central campus master plan guidelines for that site, which include major exterior construction, particularly on the north and the west side.
so we don't want to go and do nice landscaping that will get tramp he willed by -- trampled by cranes and tractors in five years.
so if we do things outside we need them to be movable and put backable.
not big things, maybe more small things.
and also as with all of our sites in the central campus, we're expecting to do great streets improvements on each block as we improve those properties.
so the great streets improvements, that's involving the sidewalk and the border.
so the landscape plan has to work something out in that zone in between what's along the edge of the right-of-way and what's along the building, as well as comply with good historic grounds restoration design and the other proposed use improvements for the building that are part of the plan.
so it's -- it's a little bit trickier than saying let's plant some bushes here and there.
and we would expect the landscape architect to have experience in historic grounds design and restoration.
>> my final question is, and it may be a restatement of two or three that we've already asked.
do we need the benefit of this consultant's work before we do any other improvements?
or do we think we can go ahead and do the other improvements, ie, steert your wall, while this consultant is doing his work?
>> I think we have the in-house expertise for doing the specifications and management of the exterior cleaning because that's how we did it last time.
I think this consultant is primarily for the grounds improvements.
and it would also make sense phasing wise to clean the building before we start working on doing grounds improvements and lighting and things of that nature.
there will also be considerations of the season and the climate because you cannot do that exterior wall cleaning when you're subject to freeze.
you can't put water into porous stone when it could freeze and break out.
but on the other hand, winter may be a better time to do planting.
so there will need to be some review of the actual scweens of the work with the consultant once we have him on board.
>> do we know exactly how long it will probably take if the court decides to go with the exterior, the lighting and all that stuff, the exterior portion of the heman marion sweatt county house, if the process includes, of course, the historic commission itself and to make sure that all the guidelines are adhered to, how long would it probably take to go through the process if the court decides to move in this direction today?
do we have an estimate, a guesstimate?
>> we have a very preliminary estimate on that.
we think this budget will take us a whole year.
>> how long?
>> a whole year.
until next spring.
>> okay.
>> because there's a lot of process.
first of all, the process to have somebody on board to help you, that's going to take about two months.
for negotiation and to get somebody to get on board and design and then procurement of the special contractors.
and that's going to take some time, yes.
this one is not some fast project.
this one is going to take up time because of all this process.
>> I was trying to put my arms around all the time.
>> I would say by the end of next spring.
>> okay.
I have no problem with it.
>> Commissioner Eckhardt?
>> Commissioner Huber?
>> Commissioner Eckhardt first.
>> I am absolutely in favor of this.
I've seen degradation in the -- as far as the -- I'm totally in favor of the cleaning, but as far as the landscaping goes, we really do need to spend some attention on the landscaping around the heman marion sweatt.
I actually perhaps am pulling in the opposite direction, which is I think we should probably expand the scope of a consultant to take a look at our landscaping because the grounds around the brings endine house, for instance, are nonexistent, even though that is a historical structure in the courthouse compound.
our interface with wooldridge square park would be hugely enhanced by a mindful and intentional landscape design for the heman marion sweatt.
and we also have a plan for the criminal justice center that was deployed but has now fallen into some disrepair.
we do have some plantings, but the northside does not.
and I see opportunity to take that entire complex and have a unified comprehensive landscape architectural plan that the bang for the buck I think would be much higher if we looked at it as an entire justice complex rather than just the heman marion sweatt.
as it is now from an architectural standpoint, and I'm no architect and leslie would speak to this much better, but we have kind of a disconnect between the cjc and the heman marion sweatt.
you have a 1930's building and then you have an intensely modern building with not much architectural conversation between them, which could be bridged by a landscape architecture plan that also melts into wooldridge square park in a way that ties it altogether.
>> I would actually advocate for going back and toying with the consultant's contracted on landscape architecture to be broader.
>> Commissioner Huber?
>> you mentioned, leslie, a minute ago something about the -- well, we know with our downtown facilities plan that we've got some plans for the heman marion sweatt from an architectural standpoint and demolition perhaps of some parts of it.
and you said five to 10 years.
do we have a timeline on that for the plan right now that we're guesstimating on?
>> right now the central campus master plan consultant team, broaddus and associates, is working on the phasing plan for what the sequence of improvements to the various properties will be that will be presented on Commissioners' court on August 16th in terms of a preliminary pass at the phasing.
my co-project manager, belinda is here.
I would invite her to join me at the table if she would like to add an comment on that.
>> can we have a preview of --
>> we are mindful of our posting that we're talking about the hms and that right now we have a window of time in the master plan phasing that's not down to a specific year.
it's in five-year, 10-year range.
>>
>> [inaudible - no mic].
>> we don't have specific time frames, but we'll be getting that back out to you later this week.
>> okay.
the last time it was cleaned was in 1997?
>> 1998.
>> because the question I have, and I'm in principle totally supportive of the cleaning and the landscaping and everything else, but the question I raise is if we're going to be doing construction on it in the next -- say at a minimum of five years, maybe 10 years, and it's already been, what, almost 13 years since it's been cleaned, will we be cleaning now, paying for cleaning of portions of the building that are going to be demolished in five years and will we need to reclean when we do that construction so it will be a coordination of exterior look?
and then if we're also going to do the landscaping, some landscaping and lighting now, how will that change in the future?
and particularly if you're going to do street treatments then?
so it's a matter of timing as far as I'm concerned.
and are we getting the biggest bang for the buck.
and actually, we're in the middle of a drought, so I don't know how new landscaping is going to take hold and what kind of timing that will be.
it will take a year or two just to get the plan in place, that's going to push up up closer.
that's all observations that I --
>> those are the challenges, definitely, of this project because we don't want to waste money.
but the property needs help now.
so we want to be wise about doing what can be done now in a way that can survive the expected future improvements and integrate with them.
so we're looking to the landscape architect to give us sort of a strategy and a framework of these areas it would be safe to do these kinds of things and those could blend in to a more fully developed landscape plan down the road.
let us also remember that our heman marion sweatt courthouse needs a full preservation master plan.
we have not requested the funds yet for our external consultant specialist who we would need to get on board for another year or two to ramp us up so that as the master plan anticipates, when the new civil family courthouse is constructed and we have some extra space to move people in to, that we will be able to vacate the hms and have preservation master plan-based renovation plans ready to go subject to the funding availability, from our pbo friends.
so we are thinking about all those things in relationship to each other, but as you say, we would really like to be able to do something now, but we would be very careful about what we did.
>> and does the exterior cleaning, is it a structural importance to address it now or is that -- is it just esthetic?
>> I think that might require a little bit more technical assessment.
amy, do you have something to add on that?
mostly esthetic.
amy lambert with our offices, also former staff with Texas historic commission, has reviewed a lot of historic courthouse preservation plans.
>> is there --
>> what the -- the black marks on the building are from actually not just dirt, but biological growth, might we say
>> [ laughter ] and it's true that it -- you can look at your laundry at home and say if I don't wash this for 10 times is it going to be easier to wash later or not?
it's kind of better to keep it on the cleaner side so you don't have to abraid the stone as much because the dirt goes in deeper and deeper and it's beautiful, fragile, fossillized limestone.
we care about taking care of it.
>> that was related to my following question was is there a frequency of cleaning time that you can't clean it or shouldn't clean it more than once every five years or once every 10 years or something like that?
because if there is, then that seems to me to be important to weave into the renovation process on a time frame.
>> we can certainly consult with the Texas historic commission.
they're a great resource to every county for guidance on how to take best care of their courthouses.
and we can reconfirm what their latest technical information is on frequency of stone cleaning and make sure that we're doing the right thing.
>> have we communicated with the judges, I guess, and other managers in the sweatt building?
>> the communication was --
>> with the judges?
>> no, we have not.
>> because this will disrupt things a little bit.
not a whole lot, but a little bit, right?
>> we had very careful coordination with them.
that's part of what impact the cost of the cleaning because we have to be very careful about not causing noise in the courtrooms when work is being done on the roofs, moving the equipment, the staging equipment around, and spraying water on the windows.
so that affects the timing of the work.
we do have to work around court times and we would inform and work closely with the judges to make sure that the work was not interfering with the justice process.
>> most of the time when we work there's some kind of disruption to the court system, we do the hours after work or on the weekends.
>> okay.
anything else.
Commissioner Gomez?
>> just one other little thing that I kind of didn't want the courthouse to be ignored or lost under a lot of other things that are on our plate.
and I'm really aware, having gone to some of the great cities.
they had some great, great architecture and old buildings and how I guess they haven't taken care of them.
and the pollution has just absolutely ruined them.
and so consequently they wind of being just ruins.
and whereas I really would like for us to do something about our courthouse.
I think the cleaning would be a really good thing to do, and probable on a regular basis.
so if we could find out what would be feasible and recommended by the historical commission.
people always ask when are you going to do something about that courthouse?
and I say I'm not sure, but we intend to.
so it just sounding like this was a good bit of savings.
it's not that much.
but it's enough to get started on that courthouse to make sure that it doesn't fall totally in ruins.
so that's where I am.
I'm for this project.
>>
>> [inaudible - no mic].
>> so do you plan to check on the historical commission on two or three questions that were asked, I guess?
>> yes.
>> motion by Commissioner Davis, seconded by Commissioner Gomez.
Commissioner Eckhardt?
>> I just wanted to ask if we could take a look at the brizendine as perhaps a future amendment because it's a small building.
it's made of similar materials, is it not?
>> yes, it's limestone.
different quarry, but it's lime tone.
>> it's from a considerably earlier era, I think 1890's.
>> 1850's.
>> oh geez.
I'm just wondering if in a future agenda item we might look at amending the contract to add that small building because we might be able to stretch must not a little further, get that building worked on too because it is neglected.
>> we'll be glad to do it.
>> and the analogy of washing the clothes I was I think a real good analogy.
I think that's super.
but saying that, I'd like to know what the historic commission is saying about before you get into that situation where the dirt is so deep and so ingrind until it's hard to get it out, unless you get cheer or some kind of bleach or something like that.
>> [ laughter ] but anyway, if the historical commission can recommend to us what would be the best time to revisit this again so it won't get in the condition it's in now.
>> we need to plan ahead and establish a reporting cycle for cleaning and know that it's going to be coming up.
>> yeah.
I think it's what Commissioner Gomez was talking about.
>> are we posted for action?
>> you can always say that you will like to post at a later time.
>> the courthouse only --
>> ace says improve -- a says improve exterior lighting and landscape.
b says authorize source of funding.
we've been talking about exterior cleaning and hiring a consultant.
exterior funding is -- I guess we could say all right, use the surplus from the chair king project, which is $241,000, on this project.
I'm not sure we're worded to clean the exterior of the building.
it says exterior lighting and landscape.
that was my thing.
I looked at three or four.
I changed the wording a little bit, but I just changed -- my word was improve.
I didn't change the others, did i?
>> you have -- don't just look at a and b --
>> regarding the exterior improvements to the --
>> it would fall under exterior improvements.
a and b are two examples.
>> Commissioner --
>> you have to be careful when you're a lawyer.
>> [ laughter ] we've been getting on john for more flexibility.
>> [ laughter ]
>> [overlapping speakers]
>> all right.
any more discussion?
so y'all are convince that had we ought to go ahead and proceed.
that's what I'm hearing.
all right.
all in favor?
that passes by unanimous vote.
>> thank you.
I'm still not sure I see consultant agreement here, though.
>> cid will probably bring you one later.
that's where the real contracting issues will come up.
either she has authority individually if it's under $50,000 or there's a bid that she needs to bring back to you, that's when it will be really instrumental and we get the wording really right.
>> all right.
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