Travis County Commissioners Court
November 3, 2009,
Item 31
Item 31, approve -- sieve legal breaching and take appropriate action regarding a license agreement with g&m enterprises.
we will carry all of the executive items into the closed court discussion at one time.
and that may well be this afternoon.
but we do have residents who have come down on item 31 as well as county staff.
and so maybe we ought to just lay out the issues in 31.
we have two shows coming up in November is I guess the most critical concern, right?
>> yeah.
good morning, roger el khoury.
good morning, Commissioner.
we -- we have the horse shows, you know, for a long time and we really want the horse shows to stay and we did lots of renovation on the show barn and
>> [indiscernible] the horse shows.
and we have changed the rate back in 2007 to attract more horse shows, especially on the fees of the custodial and the cleanup and all of that.
what we're asking today is this and what we're trying to do is we cannot waive any charges or any fees approved by the Commissioners court or the staff.
we right now want to make sure that, you know, all the amens advertise and additional services -- amenities and services are being compensated for.
such as chairs, tables, bleachers, dirt work, and those kind of amen significant driver additional services rather than rental of the show barn.
the rental of the show barn itself is $900 a day.
and we grant the horse shows as a move-in day views to move into the arenas with no charge.
and we kind of feel that, you know, we are fair on our charges and our services over there.
and I would like to -- this is the issue at this time, and again, we cannot staff give any free amenities beyond what the court approve.
i would like to turn it over to michael and he has some specific just to lay out in more detail.
>> okay.
>> michael norton with the expo center.
essentially why we're here today is is that since the beginning of my tenure in 2007, I did nothing to monitor and/or check the
>> [inaudible] of certain horse shows largely upon meeting the promoter, I was led to understand that she was very dissatisfied with matters at the facility so she made the opponent I better not mess with her contract.
i told my event coordinator, copy and paste her new contract into the old and change the dates.
shortly thereafter I started realizing that her contract that she was so concerned in keeping was because she was not paying for certain things that are voted on by the Commissioners court.
and like many pre-existing pre-existingrelationships, if yo change that, they don't like that.
the reason we're here is bring light to the fact there are a number of amenities, items that are all voted on by the Commissioners court prior to my arrival that are not being collected for and we either have to determine whether we want to give them away for free or collect for them.
if you would like me to go down the laundry list of items, I can, but in theory, that's the issue.
>> go ahead and list them.
>> the items are we have bleachers, which y'all are all familiar with of late.
bleachers that have had some attention to them.
they rent for $20 a day.
the average horse show would use six of these bleachers.
we have tables.
tables rent for $6, chairs rent for $1.50.
110 electrical outlets rent for $20.
a number of those outlets will be given in a show.
we continually replace the gf ichts to keep them up to code.
water outlets of $30 a day.
the -- the dirt work is kind of a ambiguous thing in that it is certainly our obligation to present the facility in acceptable matter for the client on a given day if they are renting it.
there is nothing in the contract that addresses or speaks to maintaining the dirt throughout the course of the show.
best practices has proven that is the promoter's responsibility because it's a subjective item.
particularly an outdoor ring, watering and manicuring could be time consuming as well as all the other rings inside the facility.
i've checked with other facilities, that is something they all take care of themselves.
as it stands, however, we've been staffing and manicuring that dirt throughout the course of the show, thus having to have staff there not only during the show that is qualified to operate that machinery as well as staff after the show through the evening into the next morning.
so that is something that is not in our rate schedule, but similar to having a forklift for the forklift driver, we charge $35 an hour, but we have not been charging these people and only of late have I made that very clear that we will not be providing that service throughout the course of the show.
naturally if we're renting it to them on a consistent Friday, Saturday, Sunday, we will manicure it and get it ready for the next day in the evening prior, but this is one of the reasons we're here, for many years the staff has been doing these services at no cost throughout the course of the show.
so a lot of it is labor costs, but a lot of it is just the cost of the amenities that have not been collected for in the case of this particular promoter and others.
we have collected from others and they've been happy to pay it.
same with we had a dog show recently and there's electrical outlets they use and they are happy to pay that.
>> if I may add one more thing is under the contract, section number 16, it does say that the licensee agrees to pay for such additional equipment and for services indicated on rate schedule in accordance with exhibit a, which is part of the contract.
and part of what michael just listed.
>> a couple of items I didn't list are janitorial.
we charge a flat fee to get it back at the end of the show.
that does not include cost during the show.
that's a custom quote because you don't know how many people are going to be there so you have to go based on previous experience and the hours.
and in this case, in this instance, that has not been paid for, but we have maintained it because we have gotten many a complaint from the promoter as to the condition of the facilities.
so we've provided services and materials to maintain bathrooms, trash cans, paper towels, toilet paper.
in addition to this -- again, the rate schedule only speaks to cleaning up after the event, not maintaining it during.
but if you don't maintain it during, it's not good presentation for the facility.
lastly, because we have so many different events going on at a given time and these particular events are nonticketed events, meaning they are top story the public and the only people really paying are the people competing in the events, it's an open facility with no gates and it's an open facility in that we have cordoning off of various quadrants of the property.
and the other events being conducted have security.
this promoter has not had security for quite some time.
and that's another issue that while I'm not saying it's 100% required, I would like to at least have the court and/or the county attorneys develop some type of labor that the client would acknowledge as to liability when they don't have security at an event.
if I had it my way, there's would be security at every event.
>> do we think they need security though?
>> if we have other events that could potentially affect them, those events hire security for their event, but it -- really security is not the proper term really.
it's more of safety coordination.
when you get that many people together and people driving around, parking in unorthodox ways both inside and outside the buildings, it's not a matter of security with people committing crimes in the parking lot, it's more so when you get people together in large numbers they don't do very smart things.
in that context, having one person coordinating the safety and enforcing at these events whether it's 100 or 1,000, yes, but do we need sheriff's officers, I don't think so.
>> any questions for mr.
norton or mr.
el khoury?
ms.
rigs.
>> thank you very much.
my name is jennifer rigs.
i'm with rigs ail share and ray and I have misbeverly who is the principal in g&m and callie smith who will speak to some of the issues involved generally with the shows.
our concern is primarily a legal concern and I have some folks here who would like to speak to some of the policy issues.
and it may well be an issue you guys don't have to decide, but we have a fundamental disagreement about what's occurring.
i hear mr.
corey and mr.
norton saying we can't waive fees, but from our perspective a very different thing has been occurring.
ms.
manrow and others have gone to the county and visited with predecease stores to talk about concerns with the use of the facility and the county has known about how this facility is used.
the county has been well aware for, for example, that the show has a move-in day and that people actually bring their horses, put them in the stalls, get them out, tack them up, ride them in the warm-up areas and use the facility.
no competition classes are going on, but this has been a standard pattern and practice for over 20 years in ms.
manro's experience and been a pattern and practice that predated mr.
norton's arrival as manager of the facility.
i realize mr.
norton has come in and he has inherited certain things.
one of the things he inherited, however, is a certain interpretation of the county's rate schedule.
because what's really happened is there has been a pattern and practice of how the horse shows have been charged, in particular ms.
manro's shows, the san tex shows and we believe many other horse events.
they've been charged in a particular manner.
now, it's true that a new rate schedule went into effect in the spring of 2007, but guess what?
the manner in which the cost estimates were made by the county didn't change.
so this new rate schedule that mr.
norton and mr.
curry are concerned they may have waived or discounted has been interpreted by the county not to require a change in the terms and conditions of the use of the facility.
and what we've provided to ms.
aldridge is a copy of previous invoices, previous license agreements, and the important ones are the ones that come after the, quote, new rate change in the spring of 2007 because what you see attached to every single one of those license agreements is a cost estimate.
now, this is after the parties have talked about a move-in day, have talked about footing, have talked about "-and where the county is well aware that the use the facility, the fact the arenas are being dragged and maintained, and this is after -- with existing knowledge on both parties of a certain pattern and practice, and then the county comes in with a new rate schedule, but it continues to estimate the costs according to the old pattern and practice.
and what you see attached to each one of these agreements is something called exhibit a.
it's the Travis County expo center costing schedule.
so for example you have a one-day show, the horses come the day before.
the jumps are set up, the horses are schooled over fences and in the warm-up arenas, and the billing shows an estimate of one day.
so with knowledge thaw the show has been using the facility for its move-in day, an estimate has been made for those putting on the events of what the costs will be.
the same thing is true with respect to the other items on the list.
the move-in day, the dirt work, the janitorial and extra amenities.
there are bleachers in place at the facility and yet on the estimate there's no, gee, we know there are four bleachers in place or six bleachers in place so here's our estimate of the cost, it's not in these cost estimates.
so what that means to us is that the county has continued -- as applied and interpreted its own rate schedule not to change the pattern and practice.
so from a legal standpoint, we're concerned that this has created an implied in fact contract and to change the rules in the middle of the game, especially now with two shows coming up on the 14th and then the 20th and the 21st and 22nd is kind of like in the world series the umpire changing the strike zone.
you know, you don't really get to change the rules in the middle of the game from a legal standpoint.
so we disagree with staff that this is really our policy request to discount the county's rate schedule.
but that's really an issue the Commissioners court doesn't have to decide because you have the power to decide, well, we think it's in the public interest and in the interest of Travis County to count the rate schedules.
you don't have to decide that legal question and it's really your counsel's job to talk to you about the legal issues.
but we think it's a significant fundamental question when you have years of patterns established and existing contracts to turn around after someone has that estimate and send them a bill that is three times the amount of the estimate.
we're also concerned about the timing.
the timing of this new bill, ms.
manro received for the first time this idea the rate schedule wasn't being enforced properly on August 5, 2009, when she received an invoice for the first of three shows she puts on every summer.
she puts on three three-day shows and how long versus that been going on?
>> so for the first time, you can assume there was that new rate schedule and we don't dispute it was posted on the website, but she relied on the fact it was being interpreted and apply in the license agreements for those particular shows and that despite the cost estimate that the county gave her, they turned around after the show and mr.
norton sent her a bill for $24,000.
which included a change in the way these fundamental items had been interpreted.
now, we understand there may be pressure on mr.
norton.
you've got to increase revenue, we understand that everything that the county wants to make sure that these facilities pay for themselves, but the way to do it is not to change an existing contracted that's created by pattern and practice.
the way to do that is with a, gee, maybe we haven't been reconciling our rate schedule with our contracts.
maybe we need a task force to look into costs.
maybe we need to define some of these terms.
for example, moving and placing dirt.
the rate schedules charges $200 an hour for moving and placing dirt.
and just for the record, I'm not charging ms.
manro for appearing here today.
i am her legal counsel, but I am not charging her for my services in preparing the letter I've provided to counsel or for appearing here nor do I intend to charge her anything in the future related to this matter.
but moving and placing dirt.
moving and placing dirt, what happens in the lou decky center, there are many events that go on that don't have dirt.
so those dirt piled up outside.
the rodeo owns its own dirt.
you move that dirt into the facility and out of the facility.
there's also the cutting horse association.
those horses need and for horses that do reining, they need deeper footing so they bring in additional dirt and take it out.
moving and placing dirt even by reading the terms mean you get bucket unthe dirt and you move it.
historically what the horse community has come to expect and what I think they are entitled to expect is that if you rent a facility for the use of horses and for an equestrian event, then you are entitled to expect the facility to be sufficient for that purpose.
you don't -- for example, you wouldn't expect to us rent a facility where the public was attending that didn't have bathrooms or if you did the parties would say you are going to have to rent port-a-cans.
there are certainly expectations that I think people who rent for a horse event and one of those are adequate footing.
some facilities, for instance, the brazos expo center send out postcards that say for us footing is an art.
for many instances it is, you can look under footings and horses and you will find hundreds, thousands of hits on footing.
because it is so crucial.
it's crucial for the competitors, but it's most crucial for the horses.
and what you need is a level subbase and you need a sufficient pad.
and what the pad does is provide cushion for the concussion of the horses' feet.
you also need traction.
and uniformity.
so what you really ideally want is uniform footing, not six inches in one place and two inches in another, no footing somewhere else.
and it does have to be of a certain consistency.
and so footing has been a significant issue and ms.
manro raised some of those concerns about the safety of the facility for the well-being of the horses and for competitors because let's face it you don't always stay up there on the horse.
there are sometimes when the competitors come off and it makes a difference when you are landing on hard packed road base or three or four inches of packed sand and clay.
>> specific to a horse event, this is not specific specific to the general operating of the expo center.
most of the other events during the year are not horse events.
so it was specific to her event.
>> it's specific to any horse event.
>> I agree.
any horse event.
how long is the term of the contract?
>> each -- what the county does is send out the license agreement that's a separate one for each event.
>> so -- okay.
but that answers that question.
and g&m enterprises is a for profit?
>> yes, it is.
>> that answers my question.
>> since you raised that question, ms.
manro has on average paid and provided gross receipts to the county on an average approximately $30,000 a year.
i believe last year may have been less than that, but this year certainly that amount and historically it has approached that amount every year.
she nets far, far less than that amount.
and for example in the --
>> are you aware of how much we net off of the events?
because the point being that the county under the Texas constitution is not -- it's not permissible for us to give away a county resource for free.
>> under article 3, section 51 and -- I can't remember if section 51 or 2, theists prohibits the county from lending credit or giving something that benefits a private party.
however, if the county finds it serves a public interest to do so, then the county can do so.
and that's a long-range issue.
i think it's really important that the county focus on a purpose statement for horse events.
because now horse events are a recognized ncaa event and they are more utilized by women than by men so title 7 is also an issue in considering equal resources for the event.
and it's -- it is an opportunity for a lot of young people toen gauge in a particular sport.
it is sometimes a more expensive sport than others, and allowing the centex show and the Texas schooling show -- the schooling association to allow those facilities, those organizations to have a facility at a lower cost is absolutely vital to allowing access to equestrian events to the ordinary person.
>> so that's getting really to it.
the idea that -- and I too, I grew up as an equestrian, I grew up with horses and I tick off their names, misty and gigi and June.
>> I have a misty.
>> mine was a dapple dunn.
and I have a great love of the equestrianian sport, although mine were tacky old mutt ranch horses.
>> sometimes the very best you can have.
>> they were the toughest.
sometimes they would
>> [inaudible] everything without me telling them to.
but I -- and I want to get to it, what we're really talking about is the level of subsidy for the sport.
>> well, long range, I don't know if that's necessarily true.
we have a comparison chart -- I think if the expo center -- the expo center has lost events in the past because over the course of the years what happens if you have multiple events in there.
so you might have a 4-h club that has animal pens in the footing and changing out -- footing is lost.
the facility is used, it needs maintenance, and it does cost money to keep it up.
but I think there are certain improvements that if they are made, then more events could be brought in, and I think it could be turned into a real show place that would make money on the show barn on horse facilities.
and we have -- do you mind hanging this up?
we have a comparative sheet.
i know mr.
norton mentioned he had done some comparisons with other facilities.
but kelly gets the credit for having prepared this and done the work.
but it talks about the facility fee and the various incentives they offer, for example, if people use more stalls, the arena fee is waived for the waco heart of Texas facility.
in the right-hand column there's an indication of what extra charges are made for particular services.
so we're not saying that you shouldn't charge for services that are provided.
but let's face it, what ms.
manro was charged was 48 hours for moving and placing dirt for the first of her shows at 200 dollars an hour.
so that charge was kind of unexpected.
so I'm here just on behalf of ms.
manro primarily with respect to the three shows she put on this summer.
only one of them she got an invoice for, the first of the three shows.
and she took the invoice and calculated according to the cost estimate the county had initially give her and sent a check in for that one.
she never got an invoice for the other two shows.
based on the cost estimate and her knowledge of how many stalls she used, she also sent the check for the other two shows.
the county has negotiated those checks but she is in limbo and based on how mr.
norton had recalculated what was due, she has, you know, potential liability hanging over her head, unknown liability that could be in the tens of thousands of dollars that she wasn't put on notice from from the existing contract.
so we have an issue with respect to the existing contract for the summer.
we also have an issue with respect to the two upcoming events.
so the immediate future is what do we do about November 14th, what do we do about November 21 or 22nd.
long range, we would love to see the county keep the existing pattern and practice in place through 2010 so that we could talk about what we can do to make everybody on the same page.
what we can do to help too.
we would love that.
but right now we're just asking for tell us she's paid what she needs to pay for the summer and tell us we can go forward with the shows on the 14th and the 21st and 22nd on the existing pattern and practice.
long range, we would love to talk with you about improvements that could be made.
some ways in which money could be saved.
i think what needs to happen, if you look at the budget, what does to cost to run the expo center, 1.2, 1.3 million a year.
we would love to look at the budget too.
we have people who would love to sit on the set sense task force to see where the money is going, to look at other events, to look at all the contracts from all the different events scheduled at the expo center.
are other events discounted, are other events paying for things.
what policies do the Commissioners court wish to adopt.
there are lots of issues going forward that I think need to be analyzed.
plus, I mean I recognize on the website there's a standard form lease contract.
there are other issues that the county might want to consider.
most horse show -- showing all equines brought on the property are free from equine infectious anemia.
that's not in your contract, but that's something the county probably has an interest in looking at and some other facilities have that in their contracts.
we would be very willing to talk with the county long rain about coming up with a fair and affordable rate schedule so we don't get into a dispute with, so staff is not put in a position now that the public eye is looking at what I'm doing, am I doing right.
because in defense of mr.
norton, you know, I'm sure he felt that the county was going to come down and say are you really enforcing this?
now, worst case scenario, we feel like it was retaliation.
maybe the timing was just bad.
but a way to "void that is have clarity before an event and it's not fair to spring it on someone so soon before an event.
we plan these things at least six months out and there are a couple people here to speak.
christy boyd with trinity hill farm.
she is trying to plan for her events in the spring and so she needs some clarity, and I think there's folks thinking of taking their shows elsewhere, which that might be okay with you guys, but I think that would be a real -- it would be a real disappointment if Travis County residents and Travis County equestrians had to go to waco or brazos or belton to have their horse shows.
for ms.
manro's purposes, we're asking that you address the issue of the no liability and acceptance of her checks for the payments for the summer shows and with respect to the move-in day, the dirt work, the janitorial issues and the extra amenities, that we continue with the parties' existing pattern and practice through the next two events, the one on the 14th and the one on the 21st and 22.
and I thank you very much.
you've given me more than three minutes.
>> if we follow the recommendation, the amount ms.
manro would pay for the next two events is how much?
>> depending on the stall usage, if the stalls in fact used are 200 --
>> 250, that's for the two days.
125 each night.
>> what would the total be?
>> the total would be based on the county's estimate, $5,950.
>> > is that the amount ms.
manro is asking to approve for the next two events?
>> it might be more if she uses nor than $125 per stall.
and she is willing to pay more per stall.
>> if we apply the county's schedule, how much would ms.
manro owe for the next two events?
>> it's hard to determine that because I've asked in a number of e-mails to send a list of amenities she would like in the show but I've yet to get a response.
which is part and parcel why we have kind of a deadlock here.
i'm trying to enforce county policies.
the issues that this lady has brought up about the past are resolved, and again, in her manner, she just mailed what she was going to pay, not what I billed her for.
you all have been given a fish-eye view of that and it's convoluted in that she wanted thousands of dollars of new sand in the facility which I refused to pay for only to come to an agreement I would haul that, which is more expensive than the sand, if she would buy it and she agreed with that and shook on it and within the next 24 hours send an e-mail to all her people saying the kept doesn't want to buy this sand so I'm going to have to charge per person to get this new sand in the arena and gave all the e-mails to all of you all if they didn't like it, which precipitated several complaints.
what she is speaking to has been resolved by ms.
manro ignoring the invoice I sent her.
after that I sent an invoice because she didn't keep the agreement and we ended up buying that sand.
i'm not mentioning moving it, spreading it.
we never discussed the spreading of it, we just said we would move it.
that issue is resolved.
>> as to the three events that have already occurred this past summer, in our view those issues are resolved.
>> absolutely.
we accepted her money.
i mean granted it went down and was not handled in a manner that --
>> thank you.
>> that's one for you, ms.
manro.
>> thank you very much.
>> the big question is what do we charge for the two events scheduled.
>> we have an estimate about what those events will be.
in my letter, the estimate for the event November 21 through 22, the Travis County expo center license agreement, the license agreement itself says all prices shown in exhibit a have been calculated in accordance with the Travis County expo center rate schedule attached as exhibit b.
this one is for the centex hunter jumper show the 21 and 22 and that is a nonprofit, thank you, beverly.
>> how much?
>> the estimate was 5950.
$5,950.
$5,950.
the county's own estimate.
and it's attached to the license agreement.
and we just don't want to be blindsided because if what happened this summer what we'll actually get if the arenas are dragged, what we'll get is a bill for 15,000.
>> ma'am, you are confusing.
the dragging is not the issue.
>> but that amount is agreeable to ms.
manro?
>> yes, it is.
>> but the question is what dos that include and exclude.
and that's not indicated on the form that you received from us?
>> we believe it is included because it's a two-day show and the county knows that the move-in day will actually be there and riding, we want to make sure we're not billed for the move-in day.
and we've got e-mails from staff saying if anybody gets on a horse and actually rides on in the facility on the move-in day, we'll charge you.
and so we're concerned about the move-in day.
we've never been charged for the move-in day in the past.
we don't have competition classes on that day.
of course, if horses are in the stall that night, we, of course, pay for the stalls.
i mean that's counted.
we're also concerned about the dragging of the arenas and maintaining them.
and the janitorial services.
we don't expect people to come during the day, but with the sliding scale, someone has come and replenished the toilet paper and emptied the trash and that's all we're asking.
it's interesting the rate schedule says horse shows pay 200 for one day, 250 for a three day, 300 for a three day and all other events pay $200.
and it's our understanding that that is the rate that covers coming every night and emptying the trash cans and replenishing the toilet paper rolls which shouldn't that big of a deal.
>> does that amount include or exclude the dirt work?
>> it excludes the dirt work.
it excludes electrical outlets.
it excludes water outlets, tables, chairs and I've asked ms.
manro a number of times and reiterated I need that information in order to incorporate.
so in other words we have an incomplete schedule for the shows moving forward.
after the incident that has been cool volume looted with cos gotten things confused I just basically wanted to be very clear so as to avoid false expectations in the future as to what the county's obligations were and weren't in terms of services and the amenities that she needed to be charged for.
so I mean the past was the past and the athat was handy got stuck with buying thousands of dollars of sand that I never agreed to buy.
and so I don't know why that's being brought up now.
and the fact that the move-in day has been -- in no way have I disallowed her move-in day.
i am confused why she's in my office wanting to know why we're not manicuring the dirt on move-in day, but I made sure it was ready prior to move-in.
but to actually manicure the dirt throughout the free day and the use days is something that is not -- we're not obligated to do.
if I look at other facilities, not doing that.
i must point out --
>> we're not --
>> sounds like what we need to do is both parties are desiring clarity in what each respective party's responsibility are.
and the issue is one party feels that they can't afford more and the oar party feels they can't afford more.
>> these associations have hired officials, they've mailed out flyers.
>> and you need a level of predictable.
>> we're less than 30 days out for these shows.
it's too late to back out.
a lot of little girls are going to cry.
you can relate to that, if suddenly these shows are going to cancel.
we have fees we've paid to officials.
we have fees to pay a contracted supplier to supply jumps.
question can't identity for the last two shows.
if the county wants to change it, we discuss it and get clarity.
then we have -- a time lag.
we reserve our dates a year ahead.
we can't reserve dates not knowing what our costs are going to be.
>> right, but just to be fair, what I'm hearing from the other side is he's having a hard time estimating what your costs --
>> [multiple voices]
>> he has 25 years of prior experience.
>> although I hear him asking for clarity on what extra amenities --
>> [multiple voices]
>> I want exactly what I've had in the past.
>> which she is saying she can't afford.
i don't think this is actually the venue and ms.
rigs laid it out in a very reasonable fashion and is generous providing this as a pro bono service.
this unfortunately or perhaps fortunately an issue where if we can get to third party attorneys together to discuss the expectations that are realistic, that we could come to some finality.
>> speaking of those who have been generous with their time, why don't we hear from some of the others if they would like the give comments.
>> I'm here because I am the head trainer and riding instructor for our new stables on the west side of Austin called lone star stables.
i'm also a member of the centex hunter jumper association board of directors.
and I think ms.
rigs has a different discipline.
she also rides, but in the hunter jumper industry, there are different tiers of horse showing and competing.
and the central Texas horse show association put on -- it's not a discounted rate horse show.
they are shorter and local.
and so it's an avenue for young people or adults as well to get in the show ring without having to travel and pay hotel bills.
also because the horse show, our longest show would be three days.
we also have two and one-day shows.
the overhead for providing the horse show services is a lot less than the five-day horse shows.
they are on the state and national level.
so the entry fees are a lot lower.
it is not because we're providing a discounted service.
i've been riding since I have 5 and I've been competing since I was 8 and the sport has changed so much since I was a child.
and the major change has been that it's grown.
lone star opened two years ago with six horses and two years later we have over 26, and I think we have a waiting list that's a year long just to take a lesson.
a lot of this change is due to the fact that we recently received ncaa recognition and this is the fastest growing womens sport in ncaa athletics.
and just like any other ncaa sport, it's very, very competitive to get a place on a team.
90% of my clients are kids under the age of 13 and they all have a dream of riding on a college team.
and the only way they are going to get there is practicing at home and then applying the skills they learn in the show ring.
this is the most accessible way for them to do it is competing in local horse shows.
every other area in Texas has a local horse show association that puts on the same kind of showing and affords their kids the same opportunity.
we provide children and adults, but my client base is 90% children so I'm going to focus on the kids here.
but the kids, there's an organization in dallas, there's an organization in houston, there's an organization in south Texas and west Texas and they all have local facilities that they can use for their competitions.
i got into create ing this comparative rate sheet because I was curious to see what other organizations would face this they wanted to put on a local horse show.
and the first thing I noticed is that the fee structure for if Travis County expo center is pretty complicated.
there's not really a set fee.
judge Biscoe was asking what the fee would be for this horse show, but it's a little complicated because there are all these extra things that you have to add up before you get a total fee for using the facility.
some of those fees depend on how many horses you bring and, you know, it's a lot of adding.
what I tried to do when I created this sheet was add up the fees as hunter jumper horse shows have been charged for the past 20 years and add those together for the facility fee, and then add those together for the stall fee.
the stall fee would include at the end of the horse show in Travis County we pay $5 to clean each stall.
i added those up and assumed 175 stalls were rented and came up with this total projected cost for this three-day event with 175 stalls.
it ends up being $10,100.
a horse show like this in the past we've been provided with the footing preparation, which I would call dragging.
the event seating and office tables and chairs.
so that's sort of the total cost that we would be faced for this number of horses in that many stalls.
the rose palace in san antonio, I went to their website and talked to their management, put the same numbers together.
their number for the facility fee is an all inclusive fee.
their number for the stall is all inclusive.
they don't charge extra for arena drags or event seating.
it's permanent seating there.
they don't charge extra for the office tables and chairs.
these tables and chairs are at the facility and the office management for the horse show just goes and unfolds the table and puts the chairs in the office and they use it.
brazos county has a new center, it's only two years old.
you can see their total base price events for a comparable show would be $6,125.
the waco heart of Texas complex, a little higher for the 175 horses than the Travis County expo center.
they are 11,625.
i can tell you I've rented that facility and it is a completely different facility than what we have.
they've spent over $20 million renovating that horse facility.
within the last six years.
it's the entire facility has fans for ventilation, you can stay under one roof and get to any of the barns, horse barns or wash racks.
the main -- they have one covered arena and one completely enclosed indoor arena which is climate controlled.
the snack bar, vending area also climate controlled.
so they do come in a little higher.
i think they focus on larger shows.
if you rent 200 stalls and we're just 25 stalls short of that, they waive that facility fee for using the arena.
that's one way they try to bring in more clients and it makes it significantly cheaper if you rent just another 25 more stalls.
i think that the centex organization and the horse shows that we have at the facility right now, I think it's limited by the facility itself.
i think more people would come and compete if they knew that their horses would be on footing that was safe for them.
i think they would come if it was a more pleasant environment.
and I know that costs money.
i realize that.
but at the same time, I'd really like to see a facility that is safe and accessible to our local organization here to give all these people an opportunity to support.
>> what do you think about the footing being important?
>> footing is very important.
i have clients that want to focus more on a higher level horse show and they have -- they spend more money on their horses.
they've been competing longer, they are more sophisticated.
they look at things like the stalls as well, the wash rack facility, the stalls at the expo center are small, 10 by 10.
some of these other facilities that's 12 "12 and that doesn't seem like a huge difference but we're talking 17 hand horses.
their backs are as tall as my head.
the size of the stall makes a difference.
in this facility, some horses rent two stalls and take out the middle partition to make it big enough to safely house the horse for the weekend.
the footing is critical.
christy may fell off at one of beverly's circuit shows and the footing is pretty packed and she had to take two months off riding from a fall that I don't think would have been a big deal at home.
, landed on her side, but she was bruised, deep hip bruise from what injury and I have three houses that were unsound after that last horse show.
they all three went this the outdoor arena.
i won't take two of them back for the final show in November even though I would like to.
>> okay.
any questions for ms.
smith?
yes, ma'am.
>> my name is christy boyd.
i am also horse show manager.
i do that two weekends a year.
i have a real job at Texas state university and my interest in horse showing is lifelong.
>> it's a paying job.
>> well, somebody has to pay the bills and it sure isn't the horses.
i think that supporting our local organization is huge and important and when we lost one of our previous horse show managers 10 years ago, I was afraid to see those shows disappear from the schedule so I picked them up and I added them to the list of 1,000 things that I do every day.
i have looked for the past several years at other options as far as where to take my horse shows because dealing with the expo center can be a challenge.
we have these conversations each and every year, each and every year we have a new direct their comes into the facility, beverly go down and sit and meet with them and say I know you are new, let me help you understand our needs are.
our customer base is in Travis County.
we can either to choose to serve them or not.
while my shows are for profit, and I do hold two in the spring, I offered this year to manage a local nonprofit organization charity show for next year.
at this point based on how up in the air things are with what we've been told and what comes after the fact, I am looking at moving those three horse shows to another facility.
i can't afford groceries and to get a bill after the fact that's three times more than the estimate I received ahead of time.
so I do completely understand that the facility needs to make the money it needs to make, but we need to do this in a fair way.
my next show is in April.
i'm in a bind at this point having had it on the books since last April with the expo center.
if these charges go into effect, I'm going to have to move it somewhere else.
so not knowing where we are --
>>
>> [inaudible].
>> and the charity show that I'll be doing next year, which a show that's been in existence the past three years but has grown in size by leaps and bounds is for a local race horse pacement organizations which helps race horses coming off the track find homes in our backyards.
so it's an organization called lope.
so we do this for the people of central Texas and I am a rider, I am a parent of a rider, a member of the local organization and I have actually put on in some regard the final show for the last several years in regard dealing with the county and signing contracts for that.
so we would love for the ex expocenter to continue what it's done for us.
we don't think we're causing a lot of problems in regard to expect the dirt is prepared and safe and the facility is clean and ready for us to move in.
>> questions?
anybody else to give comments?
>> my name is anna beason.
i ride in the fossils over fences division.
no way to explain it.
>>
>> [inaudible].
>> older than dirt, I think is the term.
but anyway, I made sure that both of my children growing up were around horses, were in outdoor activities and so forth.
the main point I'd like to make is that this sport is so important for young girls who when they hit puberty would you rather have your daughter hanging out at the mall or the barn?
and to keep them interested in horses through that whole -- pardon me, through that whole age group until they graduate from college I think is so important and having this opportunity locally.
i can't stress how important this is to the residents of Travis County.
and I guess that's about it.
>> any questions?
for ms.
beason?
thank you very much.
anybody else?
last call.
>> hi, my name is christina sheer.
i was here this morning and luckily was able to come back from work at u.t.
to talk to you guys again.
and just listening to anna brought up another point that I didn't make this morning.
i was born in Travis County.
i was raised in Travis County.
and I have ridden horses since I was 10 years old at various areas around Travis County.
i've known anna since I was in elementary school.
i'm 27 years old now and I'm still friends with anna.
you know, who is someone -- she's my father's age actually and I'm friends with her, which is something you don't normally find in most sports.
i've had friends for years that I've kept through going to these horse shows.
very interesting, wonderful women that I've met and that have really affected me throughout my life, throughout middle school and high school, kept me out of trouble, kept me in school, kept me focused and wanting to go to college, kept me focused through college and was a great stress reliever.
my point is there's so many wonderful things that have happened to me personally growing up in Travis County through local associations and through riding that bring such interesting and diverse people together that I really think it would be a shame to lose that for the kids that I see out at the barn now.
we have wonderful girls that are out at our barn just learning to ride and getting so confidence and able to do things that I don't think they would do otherwise if they didn't have the confidence to tell this 1,000-pound animal what to do.
to go to a show and win or to go to a show and lose and learn good sportsmanship skills.
and be responsible for this other living thing I think helps them become good, conscientious people.
for me, I would probably be a very different person today if I hadn't that had to be sport and been raised with this sport.
my sister and i.
while she doesn't continue, I good it to pass this on to the kids that are at my barn.
just a wonderful community and I really hope you can work it out so we can continue to ride here.
as I said earlier this morning, it is not accessible to me if it goes to waco or another city.
i can't keep going out and seeing these wonderful people and keeping these wonderful relationships up if we can't make it work out for the Travis County expo center.
it would be a great loss to me personally and I know to many other people so I really hope it can be worked out.
>> thank you.
>> polly mortimer and I'm basically a parent of a child that grew up.
i watched christy do.
i work for beverly in the show office.
i'm the one who does the stall counts at the expo center and I've also seen a lot of the housekeeping issues at the expo center.
you know, mr.
norton spoke with the house keying issues and about toilet tissue.
it's usually not there.
we've also had young children screaming as they found dead rats out there.
that's not a real healthy environment to be around for our children.
yeah, and bees last year.
we had a swarm of bees this was really nice.
you know, the shows that are outside of Austin are a minimum of a thousand dollars to go to.
that's going to rule out on lot of our local children participating in these shows.
you are looking at hotels and everything else when you are hitting the dallas area, the san antonio area, houston area.
this gives our children a chance to actually learn to compete, to learn to deal with losses, wins, make friendships that are lifelong.
i will also support the fact this is the number one growing sport for young women in colleges.
it is an excellent sport.
it builds confidence.
it really teaches our children.
it keeps them off the streets.
they are not in trouble with the sheriff's department.
they are not in trouble with the police.
when you have a thousand pound animal depending on you, you have different priorities.
it would be nice to keep the show in Austin.
>> we will chat with you are attorneys this afternoon.
and the question for me really is would it help to try to get you all together say between 1:00 and 1:30 or should we simply get legal advice and sort of make the call?
now, before we implemented -- or before we adopted the current fee schedule, was it like a flat fee or did we charge for different things provided?
>> before the 2007 change, we've got an example of an invoice we've provided to ms.
aldridge that shows that there was no charge for move-in day, either before or after the rate schedule.
there were two or three drags provided throughout the day, drags of the arena.
without additional charge and that occurred both prior to and after the rate schedule.
my understanding was that there was ordinarily the janitorial services included putting new toilet paper in at the end of each day, at least once a day and emptying the trash cans once a day and we haven't needed or asked for continuous -- I mean our folks don't really produce that much in the way of human waste or trash at the facility and so my understanding it was once a day.
is that --
>> well, yeah, and the janitorial was charged differently and there was a different contract and this is pretty onerous in fact.
so the janitorial has been different.
the
>> [inaudible] but basically it was the same thing.
it wasn't any different.
there were no tables and chairs listed.
>> microphone so we can have a record.
>> we just traditionally used about six tables and 12 chairs and I just assumed they were provided as a part of the facility.
they've never been itemized.
the bleachers have always been there.
all the other facilities mostly have permanent seating.
>> it's not something that you have to go out and get additional bleachers and bring them in just for the show.
and so that remained the same before and after the new rate schedule.
and I don't know if you have -- roger may have a history whether there was some discussion or feasibility studies or something that accompanied that rate schedule that gave a better explanation of it.
i haven't seen that, but I haven't asked for it either.
we would be happy to sit down and meet with folks.
i can stay and meet with your staff right now.
>> I think to speak to direct schedules which were in place before I got there, the important factor in all this is is that the expo center is a multi use facility.
the horse born included, the show barn.
the reason for thal la cart pricing was to accommodate multiple events.
many of these facilities you see are exclusively horse facilities and they are subsidized by the taxpayers to keep those rates where they are.
the facilities that they give you comparison of.
and so consequently the ala carte 5:00 dates the ability to have
>> [inaudible] where the show born is used for an entirely different thing than some other event and without such it would be a hard to be a nonsubsidized facility.
>> [one moment, please, for change in captioners]
>> on the outside, there was no arena on the outside for the horse shows, we added that, also we added another horse arena on the inside of the show already that was -- that was very widely accepted by the star of Texas and other customers.
so we don't -- we done a lot of things, you know, to keep the horse show there, even though we're not making -- we're not here trying to make the -- make the money for, you know, for the horse show.
we realize that the horse show is great to be at the expo center and our rate is fair and reasonable.
all that we're asking here, let me clarify one more thing about the -- about the moving and placing dirt.
that was not meant to be for the horse show.
this was meant to be on the schedule is for the -- for the monster trucks and for the star of Texas, when staff will bring all of these horse in and out, you know, bring the dirt in and out from the main arena.
so in reality, what we asking here is just to comply with the schedule as approved by the court, probably it's not that many for instance that probably many that
>> [indiscernible] has tried to, but in principal we have cost for the chairs to collect for.
that's why we don't know the information ahead of time.
that's why when the counselor showed you exhibit a, it does not have the complete list because we don't know what she's going to be using.
>> it seems to me at least we ought to get that.
we ought to get specifically what's needed so we can try to calculate that.
>> correct.
>> and try to arrive at a number, I guess.
explain to me why the -- why hauling the dirt costs so much.
>> yes.
it's -- it's the -- the dirt, the staff time, you know, there's so many hours, you know, to hold the dirt, you know, it was not meant for the horse show.
again, I want to stress that.
>> okay.
>> it's for the arena.
we used to have the dirt on the top next to -- next to gate number 3.
so in order for us to have --
>>
>> [indiscernible] gate number 3, the one on decker lake road.
>> yeah, gate number 3 up in the top.
so we have the -- the cost of the equipment, the trucking, the cost of the people, to, you know, the staff and the cost of the fuel and cost of a -- of the --
>> spreading.
>> to different equipment, you know, to have the -- the 8 bucket front-end loaders, and this is a large equipment and we have also the two dump trucks and our staff hours.
we calculate this, all of that, and we divide it by the hourly rate, come out about like 175 to 200, we did this calculation at that time.
but this is a special case, you know -- for a couple of events right there at the expo center.
he -- not trying to charge the horse show $100 per hour, we're not.
what we're trying to say, the arena event, there will be staff that try to -- during the event -- this is not part of the contract, that's what we try to be compensated for.
because the staff hours right there was not part of the rental fee for the $900 for the show barn.
>> alternatively, the dragging can be done by the client.
there are a number of horse shows where the client is not happy unless they do their own manicuring of their dirt throughout the course of the event.
i have talked to a number of horse promoters, when I was talking with them about the cost of the facility they said no, no, no, we want to do our own dirt work.
there's a gentleman interested in renting the facility, he's actually come out and done some dirt analysis for ms.
monroe.
he absolutely does not want us to maintain his dirt.
so it's kind of an ambiguous thing in that our contract does not account for that.
it sounds trivial to you all, but it means that you would have to have an employee there on her beck and call to water four different arenas throughout the course of the day as well as staff throughout the night to prepare it once again.
nowhere in our contract does it speak that we have the obligation during the course of the event, only that we have it in presentable shape.
>> that's correct.
it's been by pattern and practice for 5 years that's been provided.
we are asking that be continued for the next two shows and that we have the opportunity long range to discuss how we can work it out.
>> I think that the discussion long range is of how here's events fit into the exposition center's business plan is definitely warranted and I appreciate you for making that suggestion.
although I -- at this point, I want to reiterate, I don't really think this is the forum where we're really going to nail down the details.
i feel that we are -- both parties are sort of in a cloud of disagreement and I have a great deal of confidence in ms.
aldridge and ms.
riggs abilities to represent their clients so we can get to resolution.
>> thank you very much.
>> I would look at the specific things that are needed for the next two November shows and let's try to figure out a way to make them happen.
>> we have provided a list to ms.
aldridge.
as I indicated I'm also willing to talk to mr.
norton to see if they can do that for us.
but basically it would include dragging at least a couple of times during the day.
cleaning -- replenishing the toilet paper and cleaning the trashcans each evening.
we don't expect them to have folks during their during the day to do the janitorial.
not an extra rental day charge for the next day's move-in and I think that was -- those are the big ticket items.
>>
>> [indiscernible]
>> oh, yeah.
if they really want to take the bleachers out and we'll -- we'll rent our own chairs and tables and we'll have people bring chairs instead of using bleachers if they feel that strongly about it.
we are willing to compromise on that.
>> when we were talking about the portable bleacher, I'm not talking about the fixed bleachers that are there, right there.
there's about six aluminum portable bleacher, which is part of the exhibit a.
that's all.
the bleacher there is to stay, we are not charging for it.
>> that's what we thought was the pattern of practice, but mr.
norton was talking about billing us extra for those.
>> no, he tried to bill you for the portable chair which is in exhibit a.
it already says $20 per bleacher.
>>
>> [indiscernible] horse barn.
>> I have the list.
>> there are no permanent bleachers.
>> those are all removable.
>> move that we recess until 1:30.
all in favor?
that passes by unanimous vote.
[Post executive session motion and vote]
number 31 is the matter involving the license agreement with g&m enterprise for use of the Travis County exposition center.
>> I move a very long motion.
>> okay.
i move that we authorize michael norton to enter into contracts for the two November 2009 events only for the following amenities and services at half rate.
tables, chairs, electrical connection, water connection, and dragging equipment and services.
all other amenities and services are at full rate according to our posted rate schedule.
and the estimated rent and amenities -- estimated rent foramen advertise and services based on ms.
manroe represent education today are for the November 14th event, the full rate service and amenities will be $1,100, and the half rate amenities and services will be $650 for a total of $1,750 estimated charge.
and for the November 21 to 22, two-day event, the full rate services and amenities will be 5,950, and the half rate amenities and services will be $1,300, for an estimated full charge of $7,250.
anything above ms.
manroe's representation today that are not included in the half rate amenities and services detailed today will be at the full rate.
>> second.
discussion?
all in favor?
that passes by unanimous vote.
The Closed Caption log for this Commissioners Court agenda item is provided by Travis County Internet Services. Since this file is derived from the Closed Captions created during live cablecasts, there are occasional spelling and grammatical errors. This Closed Caption log is not an official record the Commissioners Court Meeting and cannot be relied on for official purposes. For official records please contact the County Clerk at (512) 854-4722.
Last Modified:
Tuesday, November 3, 2009 1:40 PM
