Travis County Commissioners Court
October 20, 2009,
Item 11
11 is consider and take appropriate action regarding application for american recovery and reinvestment act, arra, funds through the Texas state comptroller's state energy conservation office, competitive grant to use for the installation of distributable renewable energy power generation facilities at Travis County owned facilities located at the exposition center and at the san antonio parking garage.
>> good morning, roger el khoury.
we did fill out all the required information and we forwarded this to p.b.o., auditors, county attorney and purchasing on Monday.
we're not asking -- I'm not asking today for any approval on this grant, but I would like to give you some update from last time.
we still would like to go to compete for the $2 million, and again, there's a 20% matching fund which is $400,000 if we get the total grant.
and we're going to use now the grant only for solar energy.
we gave up on the wind energy because we cannot put wind farm
>> [indiscernible] because we do not own the land and also would like to have all the solar energy in terms of the photovoltaic to be at the expo center 100%.
we also gave up the idea on the san antonio garage because we feel if something happened to the parking garage, even though we can put those panels and move them somewhere else, it might endanger the grant if we have to do something else.
to be safer, then we put everything in one basket and one place at the expo center.
and we would like to put the -- install and design and install the photovoltaic array on the top of the show barn at the expo center.
and I would like to give you a little breakdown what we're trying to do.
it's construction of 500-kilowatt of photovoltaic, it cost did $2,150,000 and the switch gears will cost about $30,000 and the structural modification, trenching and all.
total about $2,200,000.
what's left from the total grant, that's going to go for engineering, design and also for maintenance, which is $20,000 maintenance for 18 months.
$120,000 was set for the consultant to help us on the -- on this energy efficiency device, and also we have in-kind contribution of $60,000 from county staff.
now, this project does qualify for the grant from seco and I believe that it's a good opportunity for us to move forward with it, if the court wishes to go ahead and make the commitment.
again, this is a competing grant and we have to compete with other entities to be awarded the grant.
now, also I'd like to share with you some information at the expo center.
on the show barn, those are real numbers for fy '09.
at the expo center banquet hall we used about 278,000-kilowatt hours.
also the parking lot at the expo center we use 79,000-kilowatt hours.
that's total of 673,000-kilowatt hours, equivalent to $83,900 a year.
now, with our investment of $400,000 and this grant, if I divide the 400,000 by the $73,900 I will have a simple payback for -- really in four years we can pay back the $400,000 and after that we can save $83,000 afterward.
and just to let you know, the 500-kilowatt photovoltaic array is equal to 640,000-kilowatt hours and that's what the 500-kilowatt costs $200,000.
one more thing I would say, I know it's everything was rushed, we had to go facilities management to look into and investigate the area and talk to the vendors, talk to consultants, look at the applications and all of that, and then we stop and we came back to you last week, you know, to give us okay to move forward after we find out it is a good deal, you know, to move forward with.
i know it's a budget rule you have to have two weeks ahead of time for p.b.o.
auditors to review that, but really we're running short of time and we have to turn in this application to the state on October 30.
>> October 30?
>> October 30, at the end of the month.
and I believe the p.b.o., if everything goes well, they will put this on the court for October 27, next Tuesday.
>> let me tell you, I'm very excited about this.
i remember campaigning against the stmp some years ago, early 80s, and one of the promises was that we would eventually have this kind of energy in place.
and I can't believe that, you know, talk about being patient, you know, and waiting for all of these things to finally come about, that's why I'm really excited about this.
this is kind of like one of those dream come true things that happen as a result of working hard on campaigns to try to -- even though we can't sell our 16%, but nonetheless, this really saves mean, and that was the promise then.
and I think I'm seeing from your paperwork that it is going to save us some money.
>> that's correct, Commissioner.
>> great.
>> and also I add one more thing to it, we did talk to Austin energy and they are on board with us on that and we're going to set the grade, connected to Austin energy in case we have any extra energy, we can sell it back on the whole sale, you know, to Austin energy.
>> so in essence, the amount of money, the 20%, is actually on top of the grant money that will be allowed if we were to be the recipients of the grant.
>> yes.
>> so the $400,000, is that being recommended as far as source of funding, is that being recommended to come through allocated reserve or what was the source of funding?
i'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off.
go ahead.
>> I'm sorry.
i would defer that question to p.b.o.
to see what the source of funds is going to be on that matching grant.
>> okay, because if we are in competition with whomever else is out there trying to seek the same moneys and the deadline is the 30th, that means we are kind of under the gun on this.
however, I know you deleted the san antonio site and, of course, we just -- according to what we're saying here, you basically would like to take the 100%, the entire grant moneys, and place it at the expo center, especially is a great thing especially if it pays for itself.
because really when the taxpayers look at this, I guess they will say well, you know, you are getting a grant, but you are going to the general fund to get the $400,000 if the court decides to do this, but in the long run, it's a cost recovery to the effect that it -- the amount of money that we have to pay for utilities, 83-plus money for kilowatt hour a year on an annual basis actually will be deducted.
you
>> [indiscernible] it will end up paying for itself.
it's a savings.
so the general fund will soon reflect in four point some odd years will reflect the fact that the taxpayer will not have to pay for that as far as general fund.
you know, otherwise it would be a revenue generating situation out there anyway.
of course, if it's revenue generating at the expo center, that's something else too.
so it would be a cost savings all the way around.
so I can see it sounds like a great program.
>> I have a couple of questions too, though.
i think it's really exciting.
it's something that we should definitely seriously consider, but I want to be sure we're getting our hands around all these numbers.
i have a question about the state mandated privately contracted maintenance program for 18 months at 20,000.
is that -- is maintenance -- what are the maintenance requirements beyond the first 18 months on an annualized basis.
and secondly, I asked last time this came up what the life expectancy of these panels and equipment is.
because we need to know that in order to know what it is beyond the payback.
but I think maintenance costs ought to be figured into the return on investment figure of 4.77 years because that may extend it out more if those costs are significant.
>> the 18 months, it stated
>> [indiscernible] they have to be outsourcing with a company who installs them and that's what we estimate the maintenance.
after that we have work to do with whatever vendor is to see what costs would be beyond 18 months.
at this time we don't have much information about it because we've been calling vendors and we don't get any answer on that.
but my -- and my estimation would be less than $20,000 because we would learn in 18 months what the maintenance was about, you know, right there and we can take it on except specialized maintenance we have to do on that.
so it might be some dollars.
i'm not sure at this time.
now, in terms of how long those panels last, we still have to get to that answer.
we still don't have the vendors on that call on that, but we will get you this through e-mail.
i'm still working on that.
>> does Austin energy have those answers?
roger duncan was one of the leaders in trying to get to the photovoltaic.
>> we put the call for our key contact was Austin energy, and I think some vendors give you numbers, we're not sure it's the right numbers so we're trying to make sure that we have the real number before we speak up on that.
if you can give us a couple more days.
>> I think we need that information.
>> I have a couple of additional questions.
i too had on my list what is the life of the array and what is the annual maintenance costs beyond the 18 months.
but also I was wondering about the return on investment table that's in here, since it has now been -- the scope of the project, the proposal is reduced to the show barn only, are these numbers still accurate?
since this return on investment table includes the expo parking lot and expo banquet hall as well?
>> yes, that's what it is
>> [indiscernible] total of 673-kilowatt hours, you know, generating energy for those three -- three items.
>> so -- so are you saying we are anticipating being able to put up the same amount of -- to put up the same capacity for generating kilowatt hours just on the show barn and therefore striking expo banquet hall and parking lots?
>> on three of them, we have to do on all three, the parking lot and the show barn and the --
>> oh, so those are still on.
i misunderstood you.
i thought you were saying the proposal has been scaled back to just the show barn.
>> we're going to put the panels on the show barn because it's visible to the public so we can get more points right there on the grant.
but that's what's going to -- we have large surface on top of the roof on the show barn.
but to switchgear on all of that, we're going to connect to the panels and electrical panels at the -- all these parking lots and also to the banquet hall, which is close to each other on that.
that's what it is.
as you can see, it's 673,000 -- I mean kilowatt hours.
>> correct.
>> and if we do a 500-kilowatt of panels, that would produce 640,000-kilowatt hours.
and remember, this is -- those are estimates, close estimates.
depends on the day and the year, you know, the season and when the sun hits those solar panels, and that's what the estimate is four hours or five hours of sun a day on average.
sometimes might have more sun, sometimes less, but this is the average number we got.
>> and what has been our level of contact, contact and possible collaboration with Austin energy?
because if we do end up producing surplus, what will be our arrangement with them, if any?
has there been a discussion?
>> a discussion with our key contact, mr.
frank -- richard frank with the Austin energy and they were going to work with us on that to make sure that we tied to their grids and any savings goes back to their system.
yeah, we did talk to them.
>> okay.
i too am really excited about this.
i'm wondering, has there been deep discussions with p.b.o.
with regard to where we would come up with the $400,000 match on such short notices?
>> I asked that same question awhile ago and p.b.o.
didn't move.
now they are at the table.
>> wait our turn, Commissioner.
we were waiting our turn.
to answer your question, Commissioners, the source of funding obviously has not been identified.
this thing has happened very quickly and so we have two options.
there is currently $676,000 in allocated reserve for the expo center fund itself.
so that is a funding source.
however, depending on what the expenses for the expo center are throughout the year, it could mean that the general fund would have to subsidize in some way the fiscal for '11 so that's something to keep in mind.
the other funding source obviously is allocated reserve in the general fund.
this is currently not a budgeted item.
it was not identified during the fy 10 budget process so there has been no funding identified other than allocated reserve.
one other thing that I do want to point out that is a little bit of a concern for us as it relates to the expo center side itself, for the last couple of years we have had discussions about the roof needing to be replaced at the expo center.
price tag on that is roughly about a million dollars.
we anticipate.
and so that is something that we are concerned with, obviously, as to -- as to how we go about funding that roof replacement.
in the near term or in the near future, I should say.
and then one other point to keep in mind is that the expo center land itself is not owned by the county.
it is on a long-term lease, and so improvements to that site without acquisition of the property itself should be fully vetted.
so just a few points that we wanted to make that we have looked at in this.
we think this is a -- the opportunity for solar power is a wonderful opportunity.
don't get me wrong.
but this thing has moved so fast and there are a number of questions that have yet to be vetted in terms of project delays for existing funding projects as a result of the in-kind service that the facilities maintenance folks would be providing.
you know, what will occur in terms of delaying projects, if any.
we just have not had these discussions and have not had an opportunity to fully vet it.
>> may I make the comment --
>> how will it implicate the roof circumstance?
200,000 include the replace want of the roof in order to facilitate this?
>> no, that is my comment I would like to share.
we're talking about two different things here.
the roof was -- we're talking about the roof when we put in the budget request, it's for the arena roof, not for the show barn.
the show barn, that's where we're going to put all the photovoltaic array on the show barn.
there's no relation between the roof at the expo center versus what we're doing right here.
>> what does happen -- I mean what's the life of the roof on the show barn?
>> it's good.
i cannot give you just like a number, but I can tell you from structural perspective it's good.
>> hypothetically roofs last 35 to 50 years depending --
>> those are metal roofs.
they can last more than, you know, like the usual, you know, like 15 or -- years roof, they can last more.
and I think you have a good life on that for 10 to 15 years.
i have no problem with that roof right there.
we looked at that for the show barn.
>> the roof on the show barn is a standing seam or screw-down metal roof?
>> it's a --
>> because the screws have to be replaced periodically in screw-down.
>> let me get back with you on this one.
because I believe -- let me get back with you on this one before I say anything.
>> I've had a metal roof on my house for 18 years and --
>> yeah, they last like 40 or 50 years.
>> but if it's screw-down, there are screws every 18 inches and that would put screws underneath of the panels which then -- which need to be replaced every three to four to five years.
>> it goes to the issue of annual maintenance, definitely.
>> I can tell you this, we haven't replaced any screws on the roof, you know, for the last I know about the expo center.
so I believe -- but I want to give you the exact answer to your question, Commissioner, and we haven't done anything on that and the roof is good.
now, in term of -- regarding the delay in our project, I can assure you there will be no delay caused by this project.
>> mr.
reeferseed.
>> thank you, sir.
i'm ronnie reeferseed and I'm just wanting to ask these guys as they run away -- no.
>> there may be a couple more questions for you.
>> that's okay.
it was really about the u.t.
-- it was just a suggestion.
i don't mean to bother you.
>> I meant from the court, mr.
reeferseed.
>> oh, okay.
well, the only -- I've been meaning to talk about this and I'm really speaking from ignorance and it's just from a news -- local news program, but they talked about at the u.t.
campus they just discovered with solar energy how to -- with the use of mirrors and, like, 10 times as photo product any the photovoltaic context.
that was roughly within the last year and I'm wondering if you all had -- if enough time had passed for those kind of improvements to sort of through the industry yet or -- my only suggestion was to just call -- I mean we're here in Austin.
we can just call u.t.
science department and ask them if they've made any of these -- if they've made any, I think, revolutionary improvements in photovoltaic capabilities at the university.
i heard it on the -- again, the cursed news program, but I didn't follow through so I was wondering if you knew about that.
>> any response, mr.
el khoury?
>> we'll look into it.
>> thank you, mr.
reeferseed.
>> thank you.
>> do we have any idea how long it will take the state to review applications and make an award?
a I'm not sure how long it will take them.
>> good enough.
this is one of those deals where even if we are selected as the winner, you really have no obligation until you sign the contract.
>> that's correct.
>> so although the application deadline is October 30th, we can keep investigating, reviewing and fact finding, et cetera, as long as we need to up to execution of the contract.
assuming we're selected.
>> yes.
>> I think we do need to get p.b.o.
and roger together, look at this between now and next Tuesday, give us your best opinion of whatever -- whatever your thoughts are.
>> we need you all so include the auditor and county attorney as well, if that's okay, judge.
>> that's fine with me.
but, you know, it may not be as golden as it appears, but I guess we need to give it our best shot.
roner doesn't control the timetable.
we found out about this grant a couple weeks ago, right?
>> we found out about it on the first of -- first of September, and I believe Commissioner Eckhardt's office sent that to us wasn't started looking into it.
it's not that easy, it's a new technology for us and we are kind of like at zero.
we know what we're doing and we understood this technology very well, would be here to present and say it is a good technology, otherwise we would not be sitting here and talking about it.
>> but there is a $400,000 local commitment.
>> correct.
>> required if you get awarded the grant.
so the question is whether that would be a good investment for us at this point.
okay?
should we have it back on next week?
get with whoever you need to get with and I guess we need to give it our best judgment next Tuesday.
we can file the application and if we discover facts later on that make it less desirable than we think next week, I guess we could ask that we be allowed to withdraw the application.
>> right.
>> but the question next week is whether we should go ahead and proceed with filing it.
>> just to be clear, we're certainly not trying to pooh pooh the idea, we're just simply trying to you know, vet the questions as they've come up.
>> we don't want to get in over our head here.
>> right.
right.
>> we want it to be a success.
>> yeah.
>> absolutely.
>> roger may have thought that, but not us.
>> thank you, judge.
just wanted to make sure.
>> thank you.
>> mr.
eckstein is here.
let's see if we can get -- do you want 29 first?
>> 28 or 29.
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Last Modified:
Tuesday, October 20, 2009 1:40 PM
