Travis County Commissioners Court
June 2, 2009,
Item 18
18, consider and take appropriate action regarding a proposal for a veterans and peace officers memorial.
our discussion last time was where should this memorial be.
and as we expressed some reservation about it being being the between two courthouses because we might put a civil courts building at some point in the future.
we think the members of the committee were going to mull over the options and see if that was acceptable and report back to the court and that's why we're here today.
>> good morning.
that's correct, judge, and I'm going to turn it over to
>> [inaudible].
>> good morning, judge and Commissioners.
yes, from the last meeting there were some issues that the court brought up that we needed to go back and look at as far as the memorial.
Commissioner Gomez wanted us to get with christian smith to look at the master plan and to see how the memorial could be incorporated into the master plan or if the -- if the plan was suitable for what we wanted to do as far as the location and the possibility of adding the memorial into the master plan.
and judge, you were more concerned about the idea if the memorial had to be moved, where would we go, what would we do with the memorial.
if it's going to be a fixed idea, did we design it to be able to move it in case it was part of the master plan.
we looked at that.
and Commissioner elkhart, you wanted us to look at alternate sites.
one alternate site that you brought before us was the -- in the brizantine building.
>> and we looked at that area.
after we left here, we went down to that building and that building is in -- it's unsuitable.
there is no ground to the left side of the building, to the right side of the building as you are facing it and it is a short distance from the front door to the pavement, to the street.
so an ideal location -- that would not be an ideal location because of we envisioned some type of a memorial, an ongoing memorial where there is a program at the time to dedicate the memorial.
we envisioned, you know, an audience.
if it's a time period where we would have to add a lane, we would envision an audience and doing other programs, veterans day, memorial day, that location would not be feasible.
we had some recommendations from mr.
smith and the backup material will explain those.
he looked at -- he wanted us to look at the interests of willow ridge park.
the master plan itself, and the ruiz building.
we took all of those into consideration.
after the meeting with the committee, we decided basically that we would like to move forward with the original proposal as to placing the memorial at the willow ridge park.
>> [inaudible] don't want to go across the street.
so -- and if the -- if the court will accept that proposal, we would move on.
if the court would like for us to do something else, we are hear to listen and to follow instructions if we deem it's necessary also through the committee.
>> well, the committee will understand that if we build a civil courts building there, the -- these memorials have to be relocated?
>> yes.
we do consider that.
yes.
>> will the committee then raise funds to relocate them?
>> well, initial placement of the memorial, we will raise the funds to do that.
and then at that point I would believe it would be part of facilities.
>> what would be the cost to relocate the memorial?
>> facilities?
>> well, we did not -- I did not look about the cost of relocating the memorial.
what we have because of the site preparation at the plaza right now for the two memorial over there.
>> I think we need to know the cost of relocating them since it does seem to be -- if not a probability, a distinct possibility.
>> I think right now as we -- if we're going to install those two memorials just from the site preparation we reported back in April it's going to cost about $2,000.
if we move that, the memorial to somewhere else, then I have to give you the exact number or approximate numbers, you know, for the movement.
i don't have the number with me.
>> okay.
>> I don't know, we may have to address that and we may not.
>> the removal of the memorial if that whole area is revamped would be associated with that same cost, would it not be included?
>> well, it's easy to go in there and demolish it.
putting it somewhere else is where the cost would come in, right?
once you find a place to put it, then there's costs associated with that.
whether you put the same memorial or come up with another one, it may be easier to demolish it there and just put a new one on a new site.
or it may be cheaper to try to relocate.
i don't know.
i guess I'm happy as long as we accept that as a possibility, not a probability.
we don't have just unlimited site possibilities.
this is one of them.
you know, we own the land there between the courthouses.
>> that's correct.
>> there is some space.
where there is sufficient space, we don't know and we don't know how the other options may shake out either.
so I mean I'm willing, if you all accept that the memorial if put at the plaza may have to be moved, then I say let's proceed.
i assume that you all in good faith looked at the other options and kind of ruled them out systematically.
>> yes, we have.
>> and we ended up at this original recommendation.
>> yes, we have.
and we are totally prepared to accept the fact that that's that memorial has to be moved, then we would work with whatever committee has been established, the master plan or the historical center or whatever to come up with a proper solution.
>> what kind of schedule do you think we're on?
it takes some time to raise the money, some time to get -- what do you do, get an artist to do this for you?
>> once we get the approval it will take four to six months to order the memorials.
they will have to be brought in from some other country, not the united states, and it takes a while to get that black granite in.
in the meantime, we'll be doing our fundraising.
so if everything goes to plan, hopefully we would be able to do this in 2010.
we're in 2009 right now and we'll be shooting for 2010.
>> veterans day 2010 or memorial day 2011.
>> well, we may have reached a decision by then anyway.
it's just that, you know, we're -- y'all are working on that, we're working on the civil courts building.
it may be that we have decided before you can erect the memorial that that's the site for the civil courts building, in which case we'll have to find another site.
>> and that's fine.
we accept --
>> yeah, I don't want to presume the worst scenario, but these are all possibilities.
>> right.
right.
my understanding would be that if we could do it at the plaza now, with the contingency being that if the plans come before we actually get all the moneys raised and we could make the decision to put it in the plaza in the year 2014 or whatever, that's what we want to do.
>> but there may not be a plaza there.
that's my concern is I'm trying to manage expectations here.
that -- I am concerned that once a monument goes up, I always have a feeling that it's become sacred ground.
and it's very difficult to move a monument once people have invested in that spot, that place, that place becomes -- it has a hallowed aspect to it.
and so I don't want to get in a circumstance where we vest a certain spot between those two buildings only to say you know what, actually we're going to build a building on top of that space and we need to move this monument or redo it elsewhere.
are you all prepared for that possibility?
>> well, the plaza would have to move as well, wouldn't it?
so you wouldn't move just two memorials, you would have to use the --
>> the wood mancy memorial.
there's a memorial and also a plaza between those two buildings.
the plaza, it's possible, I'm just saying it's possible that the plaza would not exist anymore.
>> yes.
but the memorial would be moved elsewhere.
so would the veterans and peace officers memorial.
if we do it there now and if they have to be relocated, all three would be relocated simultaneously.
>> yes.
now, so would the committee be willing to acknowledge that in writing that -- that not only is that possible, but the committee would be okay with that?
>> yes, ma'am.
>> absolutely.
>> we have them on tape already.
>> yes, ma'am, we would.
>> you refer to the plaza as -- but there is also a -- in the master plan a public plaza also.
>> there is no -- well, there's no -- as yet, belinda can elucidate on this.
our first phase is a needs analysis and then we will come up with the plan.
the current plan at this stage is at 2001, that is being revisited.
>> and I think what christian and I have talked about in the past and what he's alluding to in his statements about evaluating whether or not there will be some sort of public plaza or civil plaza as a part of the master plan really has to do with an understanding that we need some sort of more destination orientation point for our campus where people will have a focal point for mobility aspects and that lends itself to these types of civic plazas with a hard scape, with memorials in it.
the other alternative is to look at partnering with the city to see if that function is really served by woolridge square.
in that case I would offer that at the direction of the Commissioners court if there objection to pursuing either one of those, that county staff would be more than happy to help run the tracks when finding a location or the permanent location, if you will, for these memorials that we would not necessarily leave that to committee to have to work with the city.
>> and I think all I was trying to do was also to eliminate as much confusion about the location or the memorials as possible.
and also to save money.
we wanted to -- I wanted to kind of make sure that whatever money you raise is not going to be used once and then you have to raise more money to do it again.
and so that's why I asked y'all to visit with christian because he was -- and not that everything is in cement yet, but at least it's a good time to begin the discussion of possibilities and what may be there, what may not.
we don't know that yet.
and we all just kind of have these dreams of what we think it will look like, but you know how dreams are, you know, before they become reality, it may be totally different from what you dreamt of because of the possibilities of something happening or not.
and so that's what I was trying to just avoid, you know, any confusion and then also to maybe find a good place for it once and not have to move it.
that was the only thing.
and I knew that we were in the middle or trying to approach the needs assessment.
we're not into the master plan yet.
>> would the committee be amenable to working with the planning committee on an alternative, more permanent site?
because woolridge seems to be a much more permanent.
again, these are all possibilities and we are talking in the realm of possible and probable which is just a total guess at this point.
to have a duel track while you are planning for the wood mancy plaza to work simultaneously on an alternative location in case our needs analysis comes back and we go into the planning it becomes clear that it's not longer appropriate.
>> Commissioner, I really think there is something to be said to be able to bring in the park, you know, some kind of civic plaza or park and tie it into the courthouse.
so that people can use it, you know, during lunch hour or to just walk during the day, during the lunch hour.
so I mean I'm really interested in trying to include that park somehow.
if it's too close to us, then kind of brush it off.
>> and it is one of the objectives that we have with broaden and associates and as we said earlier we would be happy to pull this committee into the discussion is to work with the city's downtown parks and open space plan, what are the plans for the woolridge park, the practicality of being able to do something like this at the park.
are we really looking for some other type of hardscape and we have a hardscape plaza now and are we looking at something like that in our master plan.
is that process that parks and open space planning is going on right now with the city of Austin.
we'll be entertaining more of these conversations in January, but -- but obviously there will be things, information gathering and things that will need to occur before that.
>> and the gaa is very central to that decision.
>> I think there's still plenty of time to plan, you know.
>> I think we just want to move beyond this point where it's approved that we can look at and work with the committee.
looking at the assessment plan with christian was very enlightening because just didn't know the whole picture, just focus on in front of the jail house the plaza and trying to maintain the dignity of that memorial for that individual.
>> sure.
we will hopefully work with other committees to try to come up with a reasonable solution, but our thought is do we proceed with the plaza, with the secondary concept in mind or where do we go from here.
>> also, if y'all approve of this today, we need to go to the historical commission and discuss this with them and have them send back a recommendation to the court, we need to follow through with that as well and maybe meet with our judges if you all want us to do that and explain to them.
we're prepared to do all of this.
it's just a matter we need a little bit of direction and we will go.
>> is the historical commission involved?
>> I don't think so.
not in this particular --
>> only the sited on the courthouse grounds.
>> is woodmancy plaza on the courthouse grounds?
>> just to be a street.
that was vacated back into the plaza.
it's not on the exact
>> [indiscernible].
>> what you all would like today is for us to basically approve location of this memorial at the woodmancy plaza sight, but also to approve looking further at other possible sites and working with the county civil courts committee?
is that what I'm hearing?
>> yes.
>> we're interested in what mr.
smith says in his second option.
mr.
smith has predicted the county's downtown master plan would likely involve a public plaza.
it would be intended to be a vibrant space that would be logical for this type of memorial.
that would be our second option.
>> just to make sure, we don't know what that public plaza is at this time because we don't know what the master plan at this time.
we are in an early stage of the need assessment on that program.
>> it would be wherever the civil courts is located if there is a plaza there to consider locating the memorial there?
is that christian's recommendation?
>> his recommendation is to -- as we move forward in the planning process, whatever becomes our central plaza area, that there are hardscape area would be appropriate for memorials, however we plan for that.
that it would be planned to be appropriate for memorials.
>> so if we do that, let's say there's another site and you already have the memorial at woodmancy plaza, you just leave it where it is?
at woodmancy plaza, right?
>> that would be the final plan, yes, sir.
in other words, if woodmancy does not have to be row locate, we wouldn't have to relocate the memorials as well.
>> it will all boil down what in the 20-year, 30-year plan that we're developing, what happens with that infill area and when is that infill area intended to be utilized.
to meet the needs that are identified tore the next 30 years.
that may not be in phase 1.
it could be.
we don't know yet.
but we do know that the gault building and that area has potential for you to redevelop and put square footage on the ground to meet your needs.
we just don't know for what and when.
>> what says the court.
>> I'll tell you I'm reluctant to say it's definitely woodmancy unless we come up with an alternative place.
i feel like we're going down the path of confusing things and giving you all false impression and I don't want to do that because this is an important project.
i know you all are chomping at the bit to get going because it's been a while and you are being forced to wait on us which is a big drag, I understand.
but I really feel we need to find a permanent spot that we know is the spot that we can then actually consecrate and say this is it and we ain't moving it.
i feel really strange about saying I want a memorial, but -- if we say woodmancy, I have to say I will only vote for it on the condition that y'all acknowledge that it may be moved and you will help us, you will support us and help us in the moving.
>> we committed to that.
>> that feels really weird.
>> that will let you know specifically in three weeks.
we'll only have three members of the court here next week n two weeks we'll have at least four.
well, you are maybe looking at the 23rd then.
>> 23.
>> yeah.
when we'll have a full compliment of court.
let's mull over until then.
hopfully by that day we'll have a written motion before the court setting so we'll know exactly what we are approving.
>> okay.
>> one of our biggest surey ups is we really want to honor the veterans and the peace officers and the families.
we don't want to wait until five years until maybe these wars are over.
hopefully they are over before then, but a lot of times you wait a long time after something has happened and we just want to take the opportunity to do this as quickly as we can.
>> would the committee be interested in looking perhaps at something -- something that's not a granite memorial so that we can go ahead and honor that time line and the spirit of embracing these veterans and honoring them for their service, but acknowledging that we don't have a permanent granite spot yet.
i mean granite and concrete is a --
>> even with that, it is not difficult to move what is being proposed.
>> thenly need an estimate of the cost to relocate what is planned to another location.
>> we can do that for you.
but I mean we're not talking about huge monuments.
>> 23rd of June.
look forward to seeing you all.
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Last Modified:
Tuesday, June 2, 2009 2:00 PM