Travis County Commissioners Court
April 7, 2009,
Item 9
>> item number 9 is to consider and take appropriate action regarding a proposal for veterans and peace officers memorials at woodmansee plaza.
>> good morning.
>> morning.
>> good morning, judge and Commissioners.
this item was sponsored both by judge Biscoe and Commissioner Sarah Eckhardt.
the letter has gone to the full court and I've spoken to several of you about this proposal.
and this proposal comes to us via our own veterans services office, and I have ollie pope here with me today, and it is for a proposal for veterans and peace officers memorial to be located at the woodmansee -- the refurbishing of the woodmansee plaza memorial.
and they're to be located at the southwest corner of the heman marion sweatt courthouse and roger will go into that in a little bit.
i want to introduce a couple other people that are here.
mr.
david husoff right here.
most of you know him.
and also mr.
frank vasquez who are part of the committee.
and ollie, I can turn it over to you and then to roger for the explanation of what the proposal will entail.
>> thank you.
good morning, roger el khoury.
the location of the memorial is on the east side of the jail, and what we're going to do, in some of your backup you have the two moilz and also we have some site preparation we need to do to make that memorial happen.
one of those preparation is there's a raised circle over there and we need to remove the original raised circle.
this used to be a water feature and right now it's covered with dirt.
and also we need to remove some of the benches in that area.
by doing those two items, that will be very -- that will be -- the site will be prepared for those two memorials.
and I believe I have prepared some cost estimates on that.
i will share that with you later after ollie goes over the memorial particulars.
go ahead.
>> thank you, roger.
ollie pope, Travis County veteran services office.
half of my committee has departed for other commitments, so this is what we have right now that's remaining.
they've already been introduced.
Commissioner Huber welcome to the court.
this memorial is set up to be adjacent with the woodmansee memorial.
because this memorial right now is in such disarray, the committee felt that this would be an ideal location to represent to honor the vietnam era veterans by the woodmansee memorial.
and also they introduced the iraqi and the afghanistan memorial at this location.
both memorials would be visible to the public at any time and open to the public.
we've been working on this about eight months now.
and getting to the point that we have come up with the design, we have come up with the layout that roger has helped us provide, and we will hopefully with your acceptance of this program go forward to make this project work.
if you look at the vietnam memorial, if you have ever visited that memorial, you would look at it and it will take you with deep sorrow of all of the names that are placed on that memorial.
hopefully when we place this memorial here that will represent peace officers and veterans who have lost their life in defending this country, this county, individuals and family members will have a link that they can truly relate to.
the picture that is currently etched on to the woodmansee memorial is this picture here.
the individual that did it initially wasn't able to make it, but that is Ron dorsey with the Texas association of vietnam veterans.
through time, deterioration of this picture, you just don't know what it is.
you can't see the helicopter anymore.
you can barely see his face.
you can't see the background or anything.
so hopefully at the same time we will take the opportunity to refurbish this sketch and this memorial to have his mother come down and be a part of the program.
she is still present with us.
in fact, mrs.
woodmansee sent me an e-mail saying, outstanding.
i would be delighted for you to give him my personal information.
this is someone contacting her for me.
the poor conditions of the memorial has been a sadness for me and I'm sure for many others.
he was much loved and he will really be representing the carriage of our community, military then and now.
so she is waiting for this.
you don't realize, she is waiting for this.
you talk to her for a little bit and you can hear the sadness in her voice and remembering what happened to her son.
so it's going to be a true honor for this community to represent those who have lost their lives in iraq and afghanistan, and also the peace officers defending this county.
i'd like to pass the mic over to anyone else on the committee that would like to share anything.
>> thank you.
in refurbishing the woodmansee memorial where we whe anticipate we're going to do is remove the plaque that's there.
it looks like it's made out of bronze and it's all discolored.
what we're going to do is replace that with some black granite.
it will be 24 by 36 panel and it will have the exact wording that's on there now, and we're going to reimpose the helicopter and ronnie's picture on there.
it will be done through laser and it will look awfully nice.
i think we'll make the mother very proud as well as the community.
and so I just kind of wanted to clarify what we'll be doing through the refurbishing.
the other is pretty self-explanatory.
>> I'm john vasquez, retired captain, Austin police.
i was a 30-year veteran down there and I'm also a military veteran.
so I'm behind this project 100%.
we're losing not so many soldiers in afghanistan, iraq, and in the law enforcement area we've just lost two police officers I think in dallas.
so we need this memorial to remember these people that have given their lives for us.
thank you very much.
>> how difficult is it to relocate a memorial?
just in general.
>> to relocate it from existing location somewhere else?
>> right.
>> I mean, it's not that difficult once we know where the location is and then we do some site preparation.
for instance, for this one right here, just to remove a circle just like the one I passed to you that's what's existing, just to remove that gray circle and also to remove a bench from there, that's not much.
it's about like I did the preparation for it, it's about $2,000.
and what it is really, the $2,000 is the raised circle in the plaza would be removed and the pavement in front of the memorial level and repaved.
we have to do that.
this is necessary to provide proper access for honor guard and/or band for future ceremonies as they are expected to occur in front of the memorial.
and what you see in front of you is the existing, judge, and also on the last stage it shows what the -- what's going to be.
without the circle and without the bench for the memorial.
so it's not that difficult at all to do it.
it can be done within a week.
demolishing and putting the pavement in.
>> okay.
there have been two issues that surfaced that I didn't think about until the last couple of days.
one is that when we start looking around for potential sites for a new courthouse, this has come up.
>> yes.
>> the space between the two courthouses.
and if you look at logical sites downtown, I don't know whether this would be number one or number three, but you could come up with objections for all the others a whole lot faster than you can for this one.
and the other thing is impact of the memorial on jurors in criminal cases in the cjc.
i hadn't thought about that, but I think we ought to run traps on it.
so I'm supportive of doing a memorial, but if we put it at this location, it is conceivable that we have to relocate it.
and I guess another question would be if we were to do a memorial of these three -- because we're talking about adding two to the one there now, right?
>> correct.
>> whether the one there now was not there, whether that would be our number one location?
now, I've not looked around the courthouse and tried to figure out if there's a pert one, but -- if there's a better one, but there's no time like now to look and see, is there?
>> right.
and I think about when they came to see me, that was the issue that I raised, that because we're in the middle of trying to do a master plan for the downtown area, that it would be good to run this issue by christian smith so that they could begin looking at possibilities for the future.
and how to handle this best without disrupting anything.
whether we might want to move now or look at other places, but that was my recommendation eight months ago, whether this can be done.
>> we met with christian.
>> what were his thoughts?
>> what were his thoughts?
>> well, the two -- our initial thought was to split the monument, put the veterans on the left side, the southside, next to woodmansee, and put the peace officers over on the northside.
well, through the conversation with christian, he suggested to look at that area and not consider it because of the overall plan in the future.
so therefore we looked at combining the two memorials so that all three of them would be on the southside.
that was our decision behind the conversation with him.
we talked to him --
>> what if we have to move it because of the master plan that is taking place?
what if we had to move it?
>> I think you had wanted to -- next year, right?
do the first memorial, unveil the first memorial?
yes.
>> possibly veterans day or memorial day 2011.
veterans day 2010.
>> that still leaves me wondering what was christian's take on it so that maybe it would have to be moved?
>> they did exactly what he told them to do.
>> so you end up where?
>> you end up between the two courthouses, right?
>> not between, no, sir.
on the corner right beside the woodmansee plaza.
woodmansee memorial.
the memorial on the southside of the whole plaza area.
>> and just south of the entrance to the jail.
>> but it still leaves that whole area --
>> toward the park?
>> yes.
>> that's the least impact --
>> [overlapping speakers].
>> you can look at the picture and you can see that the jail barricade sign is here for that entrance as far as a driveway.
and this is the location of the circle.
>> we had discussed this about, oh, gosh, more than six months ago when y'all first came to my office about this.
>> seven or eight months.
>> yeah.
one of the issues that came up even in that discussion was that that area between the courthouses was in play in regards to the needs assessment and central business district relocation.
we had at that time kicked around ideas about being over by the brings endean house, being over in wooldridge square park and some other ideas.
i am 100% in favor of what y'all are doing.
however, the location is still in play, frankly.
this may slow you down in the near term, but we need to find a permanent location.
and I am concerned that the current location proposed, there is a probability that it would not be permanent.
so how site specific is the design?
is the design portable enough to be moved around?
>> I don't think it's a portable, but it can be moved --
>> not portable ultimately.
>> [overlapping speakers].
>> sure, you can, absolutely.
absolutely.
>> because I don't want to lose the good work that y'all have done over the eight months, but I also want to be up front about if it is specific to woodmansee plaza, there is a probability that woodmansee would not be its optimal location.
>> so in that regard, would you -- we'd have to move that existing memorial?
>> yes.
>> that's why I asked the question.
i would think --
>> that's in the plan that -- I had to ask that question.
>> and I apologize that we haven't been better coordinated, although I know you spoke with christian, we maybe didn't have a complete meshing of meeting of the minds to what the impact this was.
>> and you really still don't because you don't know what you're going to use that area for.
one of the things that I think that the court could do is, one, we have a planning horizon.
you get your first results back, I guess, in September of this year.
that will still be enough time for them to do some work.
the other thing is wherever your courthouse is or wherever the new buildings are, you could indeed dedicate an area for a memorial for veterans like you have woodmansee because that is indeed something the county did.
so wherever you relocate that, you could relocate that to an appropriate area and then have these memorials.
so when you start planning and designing the courthouse or an administrative building that you incorporate this sort of memorial that there's already been a commitment to by the court into your new facilities.
that would be another way to approach it.
>> and the location is just to let me mention in the location proposal, that was looked at back and forth.
it was the least impact on the master plan that we have in the downtown area.
that's why that area was picked.
it was the least impact.
we can't say it will be zero impact, but the least impact.
>> do we think it was necessary to have the two memorials together?
one for the military, I guess, and another one for law enforcement?
>> initially we had them separated, but after we talked to mr.
smith we stied to go ahead and put them adjacent to one another and also near the woodmansee memorial because it would be conducive for ceremonies and we felt that that location probably would not be disturbed in the overall plans for your long range plans for the courthouse and the park and whatnot.
>> what kind of monetary investment are we talking about?
>> we're looking at a fund-raising effort of approximately 40,000.
>> okay.
i guess one question is can we live with the notion that at some point we may have to relocate?
>> we would have to, judge.
if the woodmansee memorial would be affected on its own, by itself --
>> why don't we do this.
why don't we take two weeks and take a real good look at what's down there, and if in fact the woodmansee plaza is the number one location, I can live with that except in the background there's the possibility that we may have to relocate.
but if there's another location just as good, it would seem to me that now is the time for us to put together a strategy to do a permanent memorial at another location.
>> and judge, like you, I support this, totally.
and it's just a matter of what we can come to terms with.
and I didn't want y'all to do fund-raising and then have to spend the money and then have to take it down and then have to start over.
that was my only concern about this.
but we can keep looking at the issue to make sure that we come up with a good, good solid decision.
>> and since you spent so much time already, in two weeks we should be able to land on that.
to be honest I'm sitting there visualizing options, but I don't know that I spent enough time down near the cjc enough to really know what's there, so I'd have to go down and take a look, a fresh look at that.
and it may be that the other possibilities are not nearly as good as this one.
so we ought to proceed with it, but if we do, there is the possibility that at some point we have to move them around.
and at that point you do kind of waste an investment up to that point.
but I guess if the county were to move it, the county would absorb the cost.
>> and you would have to move woodmansee plaza anyway.
i mean, if you were going to take that area.
>> I don't know how you do a third courthouse building between those two without using -- this is kind of the middle piece.
you almost have to have a circular building with this remaining like it is.
otherwise you move it.
>> yeah.
>> could I ask Commissioner Eckhardt a question?
>> yes, sir.
>> the first option that you mentioned was a building that's on the property here.
>> brises endean is an -- brizendine is an historic building that faces out on 11th street.
it's wrapped by the gault and the criminal justice center.
and I think that we -- we had talked about that, probably not labeled as brizendine because like just now you wouldn't know what brizendine was.
but yeah, I agree with the judge, if we can talk about alternative locations, it seems that the decision could be grafted into several different settings.
i would like to explore wooldridge park more too because you could do a lot more ceremonial stuff around that.
it's just such a great idea, I want to make sure that we fully utilize your great idea by putting it in a place that will last and will do justice to it.
>> thank you.
>> woodmansee park, that depression is very steep at that location.
the high grounds on the north side is very shallow.
it doesn't give you a lot of playing room.
but the far -- fart corner to the south -- fart corner to the south is pretty level flat with the road surface.
>> woodmansee plaza?
>> woodmansee plaza, yes.
where the pavilion is next door.
>> uh-huh.
>> right.
>> which one did you say?
>> I was talking about wooldridge square park.
>> okay.
>> but we've got -- we have some options to explore that I think although we've gotten kind of into a clunky place here, I think ultimately the results would actually be even better than we envisioned.
let's take this as an opportunity to turn this -- let's turn this into a silver lining.
>> this is a step, you know, we wanted to present it to you to get it before you.
any suggestions from the court?
oh, yeah, by all means we'll take that into consideration.
we just -- we're just proud and happy that we've gotten this far.
and that the idea was generated and it has come to this point right now.
>> if y'all have some suggestions, we would appreciate it.
>> you don't know.
this is a step.
>> I like the idea of the wooldridge park maybe being an area that can be utilized.
it's close to the courthouse, it's just right across the street.
>> is that still a county park?
>> it's a state park.
actually, it's state owned.
>> it's state-owned, leased to the city for about 50 years.
so it's under the city purview.
>> two weeks long enough?
>> yes.
>> look at other options and wherever we land, we land.
but that way we keep it fresh.
is that okay?
see where we end up.
all right.
we'll have it back on in two weeks.
>> okay.
>> thank y'all.
>> thank you.
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Last Modified:
Tuesday, April 7, 2009 2:03 PM