Travis County Commissioners Court
March 24, 2009,
Item 28
28.consider and take appropriate action on request to address water availability and related issues at tecolote farms.
during the lunch recess my office delivered to your office a proposal that I have been working on for several days and sort of landed on yesterday.
and what I would like to do is walk through that and we can have any open court discussion we need to.
we do have residents here who may want to give comments on this.
basically, what I propose is that we compromise the contested claim of whether county water use caused tecolote farm the well there to run dry.
in the proposal I have what the county would do, I also set forth what the farm would do.
what the county would do basically is to connect the farm to one of the two operating wells owned by Travis County and we would share that water so you want a copy of this?
okay.
two is that we would run lines to the farm through the county right-of-way on decker lake road.
three, we would limit the amount of water in our -- I leave blank the quantity, but it would be an amount that would sustain the farm but ensure that the county retains an adequate amount of water for the county park.
four I say any funds necessary to accomplish county responsibilities shall be paid from either the Travis County housing finance corporation or Travis County development corporation as appropriate and the county would use vegetables from tecolote farm to feed inmates.
what the farm would do would be to use the water from the county well to irrigate farm crops.
it would continue to use retail water from manville water company or any other commercial company for household purposes.
the farm would also, the relief would be tied to the operation of the farm.
so if the tecolote farm ceases to operate the agreement would terminate and the farm would produce and deliver vegetable products to the Travis County jail.
i say here on farm -- f.m.
973, which is the del valle jail, to help feed inmates.
and then the last point that I make is that for the broader area, we really ought to spend some time trying to work on a permanent solution, but as Commissioner Davis' work indicates that is a -- probably a long, drawn out process that will take a lot of resources, a whole lot of time, et cetera.
>> in fact, judge, before this is all said and done, this may be that we may have to revisit an attempt to probably create a ground water -- underground district again.
i know there was an attempt made earlier years of course it may be in the best interests to look at ground water conservation district.
we discussed something like that briefly this morning with the edward's aquifer conservation district and expanding their boundaries and stuff like that.
so I think that if we, in the long range plan as far as looking at this, I firmly believe we should revisit creating an -- a ground water district, along with -- it's been -- in fact when you brought up that last point of that permit solution of course -- permanent solution, of course I feel that we really do need to have some kind of policy.
what that policy is at this time I really have no idea because we got all moving parts in on this.
but from the list of the persons that -- that I mentioned this morning, this morning's discussion, when -- when I think it was item 3, I can't recall.
when we talked about the drought, and looking at the solution for the -- for the -- as far as how we address this drought situation, I've added the entire Travis County delegation to that list that you have, the clerk has, to let them know that -- that we need their support in addressing this drought situation.
see, because, judge, this does not only affect eastern Travis County, it affects the entire county.
we have ranches, an example, on the western side.
we have more ranches on the west side than we do on the east side.
we have a lot of ag, but we still have cattle which is still a business enterprise and of course they need some -- some support from us and of course those folks that I mention this morning, if anybody needs to check the record, the clerk will have that and of course we have -- of course we have -- we have a record of those elected officials that we have contacted, provide us with some immediate relief to bring down some federal funding because the ranchers are suffering, they are having to sell the cattle at a low discount rate because they can't afford to feed 'em.
the agricultural folks here in this area not only here you've heard those folks, farmers up in Williamson county for example hey we need some help.
they are crying for some assistance.
in fact I invited robert skip ricket tore who is the Texas agrilife cooperative extension person here who actually is familiar with all of these type of adverse impacted farms and ranches because of the drought, the lack of water.
and they have a list of those persons that they already know about and who have contacted them and we need to see what the big picture here.
i think that last item that you mentioned for a permit solution I think will address the sustainability, not only of the farmers, because
>> [indiscernible] how they do all over town.
but richtor can address that, skip, because I invited him down to testify to see what they can do to help in this particular situation.
it's a lot that's moving, different parts are concerned.
>> okay.
three points.
one is that I indicate that this is to compromise a claim basically.
and I'm recalling the work session that we had where we had sort of battling consultants.
so I think that, you know, it being a claim is clear.
this is not to admit liability one way or the other, but it is to compromise the situation.
that seems to be obvious and also is not going away.
two is that if you have 24, 2500 inmates in your custody, feeding them is a big issue.
the person to make that call ultimately is our county sheriff greg hamilton and I took the liberty to chat with the sheriff and he is agreeable.
the other thing is that what I do here is rather than trying to sell water, I think that our sharing it is important and is consistent with some of the other initiatives that we have -- for which we have already articulated support and acted in support of.
i think this would be in furtherance of positions that we have already taken, sustainably foods.
we don't talk a whole lot about promoting county agricultural products but there is, you know, a farm industry and I think that's important.
years and years ago, when we did the farmers market, I mean, we must have found that there was authority to do that.
then we bought the -- the livestock, the livestock center at that time and we renamed the Travis County exposition center.
so there's always been an ag, you know, purpose mission for Travis County and I think these steps would be consistent with that.
the other thing is that based on e-mails that I have gotten, residents would like to see us figure out a way to assist with this form if possible, also if we can do more on a broader scale to address water shortage problems county-wide and I hear residents saying do what you can.
we have taken on some pretty big obstacles that involve water and wastewater, especially in a residential setting, north ridge acres kennedy ridge, clover place.
there was a situation out in precinct 3 that we may not have solved yet, but I know that we have committed cdbg funds to work with it.
with those residents.
unfortunately in spite of the fact that most of the county is in an urban setting, we still have rural problems that we have to deal with.
so this is my effort and I think that it will work.
our lawyers will available to answer questions in executive session.
>> I have some questions.
>> okay.
>> about the proposal.
i 100% degree with the final bullet, the permanent solution and looking for water relief to the general area and -- and my concern is that we don't currently know the size of the problem.
i understand that Commissioner Davis through his letter had asked the agri life extension office to provide to us information about how many farms and ranches are in the Travis County -- are within Travis County and are experiencing water difficulties so we know the size of the problem.
two things are raised by not knowing the size of the problem.
one our sustainably foods policy board I think also could serve us very well in identifying the size of the problem and with the specific -- what the specific impediments are.
and, two, I -- I do get a little concerned about if we -- if we do this initiative, if we implement this proposal, will there be other individuals who will then come forward asking for Travis County to provide non-potable water services for them.
and whether that's a legal issue, whether there's an equal protection issue there and then specific to the -- to the proposal itself I'm wondering about the cost to the county for running the line through the decker lake right-of-way, the value of the water being provided, how long we would provide the water, is it in perpetuity as long as the farm is in operation?
and in terms of the delivery of produce to del valle, how much and how often and what the value of that is.
also, I seem to recall the del valle at one point had a -- had a farming -- some farming activity on the del valle site and they still plow it.
so there might be --
>> as of yesterday the sheriff indicated that -- is not so.
>> oh, really?
>> they gave up on that.
they hoped to branch off into landscaping real soon and landscape county owned properties which is real good.
a couple of other things.
my thing about the permanent solution is there because there is a bigger problem that will not go away.
>> yes.
>> our agenda item today is basically one farm.
too, though, I have heard 8 to $10,000 of being the cost.
i don't know what is and we will finds out and we can tie that cost to produce that is provided.
i worded it this way because there's an immediate problem and this is an immediate solution, but I want us to be mindful that if we can help come up with a permanent solution then we certainly ought to do that.
what I'm hoping for today is that we say if we can legally do this, let's go ahead and put together a specific proposal and agreement and in that agreement we would answer some of the specific questions that have been asked and that -- that may be asked.
so, you know, it's a sort of hey here's my best shot at it, after talking with a whole lot of folk.
i did look at other strategies that I kind of ruled out.
and landed here because this is doable and I think our lawyers will say that they believe this is legal.
fortunately, the county does not own wells all over the county.
but if another person were to come and say hey my well just went dry, you just put a new one down the road and you -- you are pumping many and many times what I pumped, I never had this problem until I got there.
if it all squares with this, I would feel duty bound to try to work out a solution.
whether or not we can really depends on the sheriff, the lawyers, the -- a lot of other folk.
it's not like this is the routine case.
clearly it's a contested issue.
but clearly it's an issue that we think we will win ultimately.
but after -- you know, how many fights, how much money.
>> as we saw earlier today a legal right doesn't necessarily mean it's right
>> [laughter]
>> let me add this to it.
during our last neglect work session, with the tecolote folks, there was one ending gesture that was made and that was for tecolote that was to apply for an application of a digging of a well through the farm service agency here in Travis County.
they locate here in Travis County.
i'm just wondering if that had been done because that -- that in itself again is something that may need to still be looked at because I understand that there is money available for those that come in and apply.
i don't know if they have even, you know, done so to also look for alternatives because we're looking for solutions but that was also an alternative in --
>> that may well be the permanent solution.
but I was -- we were told by
>> [indiscernible] that they have dug on their own property or drilled and found no water on their property.
there was a neighbor's property up the hill and the neighbor had agreed to cooperate but we don't know whether there is water there or not.
the question is do you want to invest money to drill there when the outcome is uncertain.
>> I don't know.
but I do know that according to sources that there's money available to dig wells especially in that situation, in their irrigation situation.
i think according to those sources they are basically eligible to -- for a permit solution and that may be feeling with another well also.
judge I'm just looking for as many answers as possible.
>> I'm not ruling it out.
ms.
kramer, would you like to come to the mic?
>> hi.
Commissioner Davis there's two aquifers, the shallow one that everyone uses, we have already drilled all over our property into that, there's no water in the places where everyone thought there would be the best water.
in fact the front corner of our property we received a letter from joe gieselman's office in 2003 or four or five asking that we be I guess lease the land to the county or something right-of-way they wanted to put their county park wells on the fronts of our property in that spot.
we drilled in that very spot where before the county found their easement to drill the wells they currently have.
we have drilled in that spot there was no water in '05.
when the deeper aquifers, the trinity aquifer is 2300 feet down, if there were good water in there, I can assure you manville would be drilling in there and so would the county.
but it's supposedly briney salty and not good for anything.
that would cost tens of thousands to drill to it to see if there were water to begin with, decent water.
i did talk to community development block grant people at your suggestion last year and they decided they couldn't help us because it wasn't residential.
>> both your well and Travis County's well are in the shallow aquifer.
>> correct.
>> yours is how many feet deep?
>> the old was 23 or 4 the new one I think is 36.
and then yours are 40 something.
but that's as deep as anyone goes.
it's counter intuitive for anyone who is used to dealing with west Austin where they think the deeper you go the more water you found.
out where we are it's a shallow aquifer.
so ...
and I believe that judge Biscoe also looked into the grant that mr.
gieselman gave my husband a copy of.
it sounds like funds may not be available right now.
>> I understand those funds.
you are talking about the farm bill fy 2008 farm bill, I believe that's the one that you are referring to.
>> we can ask mr.
gieselman.
is that the right one?
>>
>> [inaudible - no mic]
>> yeah.
>> yeah, I don't remember the numbers.
>> well, it's the money is there.
from what I want, I think they won't release it until April.
i think the money has been set aside for fy 2008, already --
>> the problem is even if there's money there there's no water below our farm anymore.
there's no -- there's no place below our property to find any water.
>> okay.
>> sir would you like to give comments?
>>
>> [inaudible - no mic]
>> skip.
>> come on up.
>> skip, come on up.
>> if you have any questions I can answer them.
>> yeah, please.
i'm glad to see you here, I have never met you before.
talking to you on the phone meeting you face-to-face it's inspiring.
thank you.
>> let me ask you this.
i guess in looking at the permanent solution.
not only the permanent solution but the folks that in this part of the county whereby they may be farmers and ranchers, have you been able to identify -- those particular folks that may have come and said listen, skip, we -- we are suffering from drought conditions, we may have just done some
>> [indiscernible] of course I sprigged, the hay didn't grow, all of these other things, now we have to resprig either we had to sell cattle because we can't feed them.
hay is one thing, agriculture is one thing.
but then cattle of course ranching is another.
but they all are symptoms of impact from the drought.
can you basically just give us a little picture, since you represent all of Travis County, can you give us a picture of how severe the situation is and if those folks have come forward complaining about, either saying they have a shortage of water.
>> okay.
well, it's very severe.
we are the most severely impacted part of the entire country as far as drought.
we are the only part of the country in exceptional drought.
when I say we I mean central Texas down all the way to dewitt county, cuero area.
the effect is multi-facetted.
the oats crop was a complete failure.
farmers are buying hay from other areas.
farmers that depended on hay as an income aren't making that income.
farmers that have to buy hay to feed.
farmers are selling as a low price, buying them later on when the marketings back up.
it affects every area of agriculture, including pick your own farms, local fresh produce farms, part of the quality of life in our community reaching beyond just the farmer but the people that depend on the local farmer for a local grown quality healthy type of food.
so it's multi-facetted and a number of counties around Travis County, there have been requests already made to the governor's office for assistance, declaration of disaster.
it involves bringing a bunch of agencies together to try to quantify it.
right now those numbers don't exist.
it would be agencies like farm service agency who we have been in contact with this week and a number of others to try to determine everything from what -- at the local feed lots or excuse me the local auction barnes, how many cattle have been selling, what are the impacts of it, quantifying from farmers what they haven't made.
the corn and cotton crops go in soon and from all weather predictions they are going to also be affected.
bringing all of that together will involve a lot of agencies.
but our agri life management team at the university has been working with different counties as requested to try to pull that kind of thing together to support a request for particular dollars should the president decide to grant the governor's request for emergency management funds.
>> so if those funds are made available, let's say that the federal government released money to this general area.
i'm looking at all of Travis County.
not only eastern but the ranchers got a lot of ranchers on the west side of the county.
>> yes, sir.
>> and the federal government decides to release moneys, per se, how would that be distributed, is there any record of distribution of who gets what first?
>> that I don't know.
i'm meeting with mike joyce from Travis County emergency management next week, part of the emergency management team with them.
i spoke to the director this morning of emergency management or the manager who was here for a meeting.
and we're going to have to put together some information based on people who have done that in the past.
from our end of it we work with the farmers on an educational basis, not so much regulatory.
i don't know I don't have that answer.
>> in a letter that I sent to you, a court had a copy of that letter along with the clerk, available to the public.
one thing that I did ask you for -- if possible to collect data not only as far as what you just described here, describing the drought, but collected all over the county.
would you possibly tell me when you could have that information made available to the Commissioners court?
>> we have begun to ask for that kind of information now.
but because it's not out there where we call four or five different numbers and get all of the data in, it's going to have to be determined by interviewing as many farmers as possible, auction barns and others.
it's hard to put a particular date on it, I would think within a few weeks something like that could be pulled together.
>> pulled together.
>> it's going to involve a lot of different agencies from Travis County on to usda and others in order to get the most accurate data that we can.
>> okay.
thank you.
thank you for your --
>> I have a couple of questions for mr.
richter, thank you so much for being here.
actually you have already answered one of the questions which is whether we can get the size of the problem defined.
secondly, in -- with your expertise, how do we, what are our options for providing sustainably water supply in this drought and beyond?
>> it's very difficult.
again, the water table is out of my area of expertise.
but a situation like with tecolote farms is indeed a problem.
because you can't just sink a well a little deeper like you do in other areas.
>> we are seeing boggy creek farms had their well run dry, jacobs well in hays county run dry from the first time in its history I believe.
>> ranches without wells that depended on stock tanks that had never gone dry are not without water.
it's multi-facetted.
pastures that have been a permit source of grazing for permanent source of grazing for livestock the plants themselves have died.
they are going to have to go in and reestablish pasture when it does start raining again.
it's very difficult to put a dollar figure on the extent of the loss and the financial hardship to ag producers.
>> what's the silver lining in this?
i'm not seeing any.
>> rain.
>> there's got to be one, though, rain is on the way?
>> rain.
>> can I make a comment.
>> thank you for coming, also, the drought is terrible, I know lots of people in counties all over are suffering from the drought.
i would like to reminds all of the Commissioners that our well problems started before the drought.
and I don't think we should put this big umbrella over it when the problems started in December of 2007 when our well pumping capacity dropped by 50%.
we went over all of this on March 5th.
but I just want to remind everyone that the drought is not affecting everyone.
it's not doing us any good because everyone says oh, yes everyone is suffering from the drought.
true, but we have love lived through many droughts on our wells, nothing this exceptional.
but people in our area said that our well had water in the 1950s during the great drought.
it's a drought problem now but it didn't start out that way.
when the director of parks offered to help us if the county had helped cause our problem there was no drought.
>> but I think you also have to recognize, though, in the drought of the 1950s there wasn't the kind of draw on the ground water in eastern Travis County that there currently is.
there are two major non-profit water corporations pulling off of that same aquifer as well as Travis County.
>> sure, I recognize that.
>> I just want to be clear that this proposal is predicated in part on three things as the judge laid out.
one is to promote the sustainably foods initiative which I think is absolutely a four square solid reason on which to predicate this.
but one of the other predicates is to compromise a contested claim of whether the county's water use caused tecolote's well to run dry.
i can only speak for myself, but I personally don't believe that has been proven.
again as we were discussing earlier, irrespective of whether Travis County's water usage which is only one user in that area, is materially affecting your well, your well is materially affected.
>> right.
>> of course our water use is for a park, not for a residence or small farm.
>> it's beneficial but not -- what's the other -- essential.
>> my hope was to get around a big fight about causation.
and just try to compromise.
>> I agree.
and I don't want to even talk about causation anymore.
but I did send judge Biscoe a letter.
i don't think I sent it to the rest of the Commissioners.
i found a letter from the original thorn hill group consultant.
who left the project mid-way through.
he read the thorn hill and mark hemmingway's report in the letter he agreed that mark hemmingway's conclusions that he would be in agreement with them.
>> I believe having sat through the work session that there was unanimity among all of the expert that's that -- the water level in that aquifer has been reduced.
that was I think unanimously agreed to.
which is the reason why your wells are dry.
>> there will be legal questions for our outstanding lawyers.
that we can take up in executive session.
anything else in open court?
thank you.
while we work on this permanent solution, Commissioner Davis has your phone number, right?
we will get in touch with you, we need your help.
>> thank you, if we can do anything to help with that request, let me know.
>> please do.
>> I need to pull a lot of folks together and it will take a while, I would like to get started on that as soon as possible --
>> [multiple voices]
>> is on the sustainably foods policy board they could be a tremendous resource in ferreting out additional information as far as the size of the problem.
you know, I mean all of the farmers and the ranchers are farm -- farmers and ranchers can be friends
>> [laughter]
>> that doesn't have to be agendized the letter that I sent them to start collecting information.
>> any action that the court wants to take for the court has to be on the agenda.
>> okay.
>> the court needs to act on it.
>> the suggestions to get started with it.
we want to agendize that next week for him to start gathering information we will get something --
>> we need it on the agenda.
>> to do that as far as the court looking for information.
>> right.
>> all right.
what I would do, too, is I would spend a little time trying to put together a charge so in addition to whatever action he might take there would be other issues that we need to work on.
>> it appears to be something that's state-wide it's just a state-wide collaborative effort to try to address this drought situation.
>> let's solve Travis County's problem first and share it with the rest of the state.
show them what we have done.
>> the drought is all over, Travis County
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Last Modified:
Tuesday, March 24, 2009 2:12 PM