Travis County Commissioners Court
March 25, 2008
Item 1
1. Receive comments regarding requests to authorize the filing of instruments to reject the dedication and quitclaim deed two portions of right of way, one being a portion of an un-named right of way with the other being a portion of dorado pass, both being within the resubdivision of tracts 5, 6, 8 and 9 of lakehurst subdivision and vacate two 20 foot un-specified easements, both being within the resubdivision of tracts 5, 6, 8 and 9 of lakehurst subdivision. Move to open the public hearing.
>> all in favor? That passes by unanimous vote.
>> hi, anna bolin, Travis County t.n.r. This lakehurst subdivision is an old subdivision platted in 1941, that now toll brothers they are working to build streets in the area and to get the streets to a point that they are acceptable. One of the things that today's action specifically is about is to vacate two strips of right-of-way and two unidentified, unspecified easements that were on the original 1941 plat. On the map here, the right-of-way that's looking to be vacated is drawn in a red and white -- I知 sorry, orange and white horizontal dash and the unspecified easements are kind of a pinkish red color. Neither easement is needed -- well, the easements aren't needed and the right-of-way isn't needed for the site plan that t.n.r. Is currently reviewing. I should also add that in order to -- in order to make the right-of-way work, there are also dead -- they are also dedicating some or they have dedicated the strips inside -- where the red lines are on there, a separate instrument to -- to -- so that they can build roads that are consistent with our standards. I致e had calls about this from the neighbors, mostly informational. When we explain what's going on, that seemed to satisfy the neighbors. But it is kind of -- it is kind of confusing, you know, an old grandfathered plat trying to make it -- work today, you know, it takes a little explanation and that's what we've done.
>> this is a public hearing. Would anyone like to give testimony during the public hearing? If so, please come forward. Yes, sir, have one of those five vacant chairs there. If you would give us your name, we would be happy to get your comments.
>> great.
>> if you are here on this item, we have room for four more. So if you would come forward at this time, we would appreciate it. Yes, sir?
>> hi, my name is tom
>> [indiscernible], I live at 19823 lakehurst loop. And been there since '93. I知 just trying to -- I知 not sure who you are, but trying to understand kind of how that's affecting the older homes and the older neighborhood, you know, that was built a long, long time ago when, you know, people couldn't afford to buy on lake Austin and stuff like that. So they moved way out and very modest homes and Travis County, to be real honest with you, there's a road called lakehurst loop that kind of circles the toll brother property, that road has never really been maintained to what you would consider to be safe standards. And because it's such rural area, people walk on the streets and stuff like that, now we have all of this pressure from these developer guys and -- and we're just concerned about the safety of people walking in the streets because the roads have very super narrow hairpins and, you know, you couldn't fit two cars side by side on it. So when you put all of this extra pressure, you know, basically a huge amount of pressure compared to what's there now, I知 just concerned what the safety of -- about the safety of everybody.
>> what's the plan regarding streets?
>> we are reviewing a site plan for the streets and drainage in this subdivision to get them up to standards. So I would say that that's something that we are reviewing right now. This action doesn't approve the site plan. They are working with our engineers. And they will have to have those issues addressed before we approve them.
>> streets are part of the subdivision?
>> some streets are, yes. Don?
>> streets are on the way. And in a development like this, the developer builds the streets to county standards and asks the county to accept them.
>> yeah.
>> typically, we go out and look at them and if they meet county standards we accept them.
>> I知 not really -- this is really my first time I致e ever been a part of this process. So, you know, my concern is much like what's happening on 71 is we have the cops showing up after the kids are dead. We have -- we have, you know, after everybody is hurt, everybody rushes in and says hey there's a problem here. And I guess what I知 saying is, you know, we've got this pressure going on in this neighborhood, the roads are getting destroyed by these heavy trucks, they come in and they just do whatever fixes they need to do to make sure that it's kind of good enough so people don't complain and -- and what happens when someone gets hurt and afterwards you say oh, now we'll come in and fix it. We will build -- well, build the infrastructure first, make sure it's a safe environment. Put the sidewalks in like you would expect there to be sidewalks or make it so people don't have to walk in the middle of the road. Then I think people would be like -- oh, this is a good neighbor and this is a -- someone who cares about his neighborhood that he's coming into. I think people would have less concern. But what's happening is they are building these huge houses and then it's kind of like well, whoever heats up the pot maybe they will respond to it.
>> tom, do you all have an entity that can work with the developer, can the -- work with our department? Is there a cohesive group of people?
>> I don't think so to be honest with you. I think we all work hard. We come home and we relax and then we go back and we work hard. And -- fortunate enough, my wife said -- 9:00 this morning, my office is downtown, I should just listen and see what's going on.
>> do you think that you could gather some folks? Because this is the perfect time to do it given that this plat is going to be submitted to us in the comments and kind of things that you are bringing up are absolutely the things that need to be addressed. If -- it's always helpful, I mean, if we have a group of y'all that say, I mean, just have volunteers to say how many of us want to come and work with -- with staff and work with the toll brothers and say there are issues that we would like to have before you. That really is the way to make this thing work. I think we could make it work that way.
>> yeah, you know, I can't speak for anybody else, you know, I guess -- I guess, you know, I知 just fortunate to be in a situation where some of my time is free and not super structured it's hard for me to say that everybody there can fit their schedule to accommodate people who are in the profession of building things.
>> then anna can -- can we make sure that either the county or the toll brothers get together, try to get some information to the people that are affected in this area and have a -- call it a general meeting -- call a general meeting and do it that way. I don't want to put it on your back, tom. I mean everybody is busy like you say. But let's try to get folks collectively to a spot where those kind of issues can be brought up and people will know -- is that something that we can do, anna?
>> a weekend or evening meeting?
>> I don't know. Really to be honest with you, this really came on like in 35 minutes to me, I知 kind of coming up to speed on it.
>> so you all don't have a neighborhood association or homeowners association.
>> no, sir. It's a very rural area. Up to a year and a half ago they have probably almost -- I haven't done a count on the building, they probably almost doubled the population of the houses in one year. So you have 12 people or 15 houses, you know, that were very rural for a -- forever. And all of a sudden these guys are pumping in 60 houses.
>> you are concerned about the streets and safety.
>> very much.
>> okay. Yes, sir?
>> > good morning, I知 jim when it live, here representing three of the families along the lakehurst like, borengo,
>> [indiscernible] richter and lingar family, I apologize for not being better prepared. I will say what danny said. Typically if I were going to come and make this kind of testimony, I would have discussed this with him ahead of time and I would have provided you all with at least an e-mail summary of my concerns ahead of time. I didn't get called until yesterday on this, so I知 running as fast as I can and hoping I don't fall down. I do have an e-mail from mike richter who owns the property across the street from the toll brothers project. I知 going to try and be cohesive in sum riengz the -- sm riengz the concerns -- summarizing the concerns. The main concerns that they have are that the Travis County -- call for process which I will summarize as ready, aim, fire, what the neighbors see is fire, ready, aim. There's already a dozen houses built out there, more that are under construction, there's no cohesive drainage plan in place for how this project is going to be drained. I致e got preliminary drainage plans that malone wheeler prepared, they show the existing drainage pattern at 1.92-acres that drain on to the richter family. They show their proposed drainage plan as 12.2-acres to drain on to the richter family, an increase in the storm water runoff of 8.5 cubic feet per second to something that's four times or six times that amount, I知 sorry I don't have the data with me. But it's alarming. There's no easements to get that water anywhere to the lake. Now, the richter family and baranga family have offered an easement that they have negotiated with the toll brothers, their condition was hey we swim in that cove right there where you are going to be dumping all of this water, so we would like you to run it through a sand filter, a simple water quality pond. Toll brothers has offered something different. They call it an aqua swirl. It does provide some measure of water quality. I知 not an engineer and I知 not an expert on water quality, but I致e been in this business a while and I know a little bit about it. It's more of a scent fujita type of -- centrifuge type of thing, it will take out sediments, floating trash, but doesn't do anything for like fertilizer runoff or animal feces, for example. So they are concerned about water quality right where they swim this stuff would get dumped. Their condition was give us some modicum of water quality, this is a huge development as the other gentleman stated and there's no plan in place for how the water is going to get dayed into Lake Travis. They have also talked to the linger family about getting an easement from them but don't get back to them. We understand now that there's a plan, I can't really address it on the map that's up here, I look at it. I know that water runs downhill, storm water likes to run in a straight line. They have a plan, prospective plan for a zigzag pattern to get it down into Lake Travis, the neighbors are seeing that as an opportunity for them to investigate ways to circumvent water quality and just dump it. You know the pedernales becomes stagnant in the summer months and whatever dumps in there after some, you know, strange, you know, summer rainfall that we get is going to just sit there. And it's going to have an impact. I don't want to take too much of your time. I知 going to just quote a couple of things that I summarized last night. I did quick research off the internet. I知 reading out of your code section 8 2.207 which talks about storm water drainage and floodplains. It says the preliminary plan, final plat or development permit may not be approved unless it includes storm water drainage facilities, controls and measures that I知 going to summarize a couple of these, attenuate the effects of any proposed increase in storm water, to, from, across or along roadways or within or adjacent to development, number two, provide adequate conveyance of storm waters from 100 year flood, number 6 prevent any additional identifiable adverse flooding on other property, number 7, sub-- subject to section 0 below, which I don't have here, to the greatest extent feasible, preserve the natural and traditional character of the land and the waterway within a 100 year floodplain. As I mentioned earlier they are changing drainage patterns in a major way from less than two acres that drain to a certain area to over 12-acres into that area. That's significant. It should be addressed. Number 8 ensure on-site control of the two year peak flow provided that the development may provide off-site control at a two career peak flow if no stream bank erosion or I want to emphasize this adverse water quality impact from increased peak flow will occur. The neighbors have obviously see adverse water quality impact from this project. Further down in -- in paragraph e 1, it says the owner shall provide adequate off-site drainage improvements to accommodate the full effects of the development. We haven't seen that yet. We have no idea how this project is going to drain. I致e got four sets of plans here. Two that show different proposed storm sewer systems, two that show different proposed drainage areas that they want to regrade on this property. We don't have any answers to any of that stuff. This may not be the venue, talking about street right-of-way vacation, we don't know what the right venue is. So we hope that Commissioners will give consideration to the quality of the water in Lake Travis, the neighbors that already live in the area, and the -- the overall plans for this project for safety and water quality. Thank you.
>> let me ask you a question. You mentioned that the pedernales in your presentation. And you said that -- that it has its low points and of course stagnation, things can be stagnant, things of that nature. My question to you is right now the pedernales is kind of up a little bit. Probably hasn't been up to the level of where it is now probably over a number of course of years. It's really been -- been real low in previous years. What -- are you suggesting that -- that the development that may occur may cause stagnation within the pedernales river system itself as it empties into the Lake Travis and points up toward burnet and stuff like that because of the flow of the water and the movement of the water is not there because of the level of the -- of the -- of the river itself is low at times? Is that what we are leading to? Because I知 really trying to put it altogether.
>> no, Commissioner Davis. I would not suggest that this is -- this is kind of like an eye lash on a flea on an elephant's back. I think it's insignificant to water flows in the river system overall. However, my point is I致e been out there and seen the pedernales river when you couldn't even hardly -- in some places you couldn't sea water across the creek. It was almost dried up. It was two summers ago that I remember crossing the bridge and looking at that. Because I致e also seen it when it's high. So the point is in the springtime when we get a big spring time rain and a flood, you know, the fertilizers are probably going to go down and mix in Lake Travis and it's probably not going to have a great impact on these neighbors because the flows in the water are significant. However, in -- in summer rains when the river is down and in a drought year, it's going to flush into the water and there's not going to be a big change of water. There is -- the flows slow way down. The -- it's a small point. I mean the point is, I don't think anyone can argue that their project is going to adversely impact water quality. Now, I知 -- I want to be a fair guy. If they are grandfathered they are grandfathered. But what --
>> we don't want them to do that.
>> well, I --
>> I -- our challenge is to make sure they don't.
>> I would love it if there would be some water quality and I think --? Why don't we do this? This is a little unexpected. Is the developer -- okay. Why don't you -- you and the residents get with the developer, talk to -- talk through these issues, we will just delay action until an appropriate time. It would seem to me if you all can meet within a week or two, then put this matter back on the court's agenda, we would be in a better position to act. Now, I do know that -- we have requested that some of these issues be addressed. Rather than lay them out today at a meeting we can come with sort of written summary of what's been done. If the residents can put together, like you have your testimony today in an e-mail, if you will send it to county staff, we can address those points, plus get the applicant to do the same thing. That may be a better use of time to try to get y'all together, we'll just preserve the status quo until we hear that at least you've had the meeting and it would help us to know what issues that you have been able to reach agreement on, which ones you've not. So we can just address the points of disagreement. Is that okay?
>> can I adjust two quick points? One, this is an old, old plat that has grandfathered status. So if they are building on lots, even if the roads aren't there, they have a right to do that. Two, the action today is to vacate a couple of easements and to reject the dedication of right-of-way. It's not to approve the permit.
>> I understand.
>> a lot of the issues that were brought up this morning are things that we are looking out in the engineering review of the site plan.
>> once we start down the road, we typically reach the decimation.
>> absolutely.
>> we may as well hold off rather than start down there.
>> the other thing is what does the law require, especially as to a grandfathered subdivision. The other question is what should the county request of the applicant because it's the right thing to do. So it seems to me that whether it's required or not. If we think it ought to be done, we ought to ask it. At the appropriate time we can figure out what the law does and does not require.
>> I知 danny martin with malone wheeler. I represent toll brothers on this project. If you wouldn't mind I would like just a couple of minutes just to let you know how this process started and how we got to where we are today. Would that be okay, sir?
>> really, I prefer not. I prefer that because we are kind of behind schedule already. If you all are going to have this meeting, we know now there are points of disagreement. We will set aside more than the five minutes we typically expect in one of these public hearings. Can you wait?
>> if you would like for me to, sir, there have been points made here --
>> we just listen, I don't accept any of them to be completely true. Their perspectives from residents out there, residents who kind of live in rural area been left alone. I知 sure they moved out there to be left alone. All of a sudden development is coming, not only to this area but to a lot of areas in Travis County. So we deal with it. But if there's a point or two that's burning so much that you can't wait --
>> I would like -- I can't walk out of here and -- leave this like it is.
>> let's have it.
>> okay. Toll brothers bought tracts of land that were platted in 1941. The tracts are land they purchased from the butler trust were 107 small residential lots in Travis County. There were associated right-of-ways dedicated with that plat. Toll brothers is not trying to build 107 houses on these 107 lots. We're combining lots, we've picked out the lots that come together to create building sites and we're proposing to build 58 homes on the 107 lots. Part of the right-of-way that we're vacating this morning will become parts of those building sites. We are constructing or going to construct ism improvements for dorodo pass pass to that all of our building sites will access dorodo pass and other streets in the neighborhood. We have no access, driveways or anything going on to lakehurst loop. If you can think about if you were out in rural area and you were going to buy a lot and you were able to buy a small lot that fronted on Lake Travis those are the lots that were purchased and so we are ringed by the people that have been out there for years and years and years that front the lake. Lake. They're on lakehurst loop down by the water. They are on small lots, they are on septic, their runoff goes directly into Lake Travis. Under the 1941 plat we are grandfathered from the current Travis County regulations. We are working with the lcra. We also meet their requirements for non-permit. Talking to
>> [indiscernible] and tom
>> [indiscernible] working on our drainage. We tried on several attempts to work with the neighbors about obtaining drainage easements through their property to contain our runoff through the 100 year floodplain which is at 715 around Lake Travis. Those efforts are ongoing. We still have opportunities that we're working with the t.n.r. Staff on rounding up our drainage, not putting any increase on any of our neighbors because we are kind of on top of the hill and everybody that's existing is down below us between us and -- and Lake Travis, which is -- which is, you know, a large detention pond. And --
>> Lake Travis is a large detention pond?
>> yes, ma'am. It's a flood control structure on the colorado river. Everybody's runoff in this area --
>>
>> [indiscernible] told me that hamilton pool is a large detention pond.
>> I知 sorry.
>> someone else told me that hamilton pool is a large detention pond as well.
>> I wouldn't consider hamilton pool to be a detention pond. I would think that's a geological formation out there that -- that is on the small creek. We're on bee creek, bee creek drains into the colorado river. Below the pedernales river. We are working with the lcra, and -- and we're trying to round up our drainage, keep it into a storm sewer system that will convey it to -- to Lake Travis and not have any effect on any of the existing homes. In our working with t.n.r. On permitting, we've -- we've gone out there and surveyed all of the right-of-ways, found where the actual payment exists in the right-of-way and where there was not adequate right-of-way to parallel that pavement, we are dedicating to the county enough right-of-way so that there is a uniform right-of-way containing the existing improvements of roadways out there, we are hoping to improve the transportation system and the ability for the county to maintain the roads that are out there. Wife participated in the bcp and we're -- we're -- we're not accessing lake hurst loop. We extended the water system we are going to be perming the septic system through the lcra. My opinion 58 -- 58 nice homes in this area is a whole lot better than 107 smaller homes that would be an impact on runoff impact on water quality, a whole lot of more impact on traffic. We would be glad to work with the neighbors. We have talked to most of them that surround us to the west of us. If you would like for us to meet with them, we would be glad to do so, sir.
>> I think a meeting would be appropriate. Seems to me you've done a whole lot to be a good neighbor and good developer, but I知 not sure that your neighbors out there know about it. Our backup basically said the county doesn't need this right-of-way, that's -- pick up some more, which made all of the sense in the world. We didn't know about all of this issues. The backup didn't show them because really it's not the right time for them. But based on what we have heard today, it's the right time for a meeting. So you all can get together and -- and -- and, you know, figure out what you can reach agreement o. The neighbors have one perspective, you have another, there are facts there. After a good airing of the facts, you all just make -- we received words that everything is in agreement -- we may receive word that everything is in agreement and look forward to the ground breaking.
>> yes, sir.
>> how is that? In a couple three weeks, after the meeting?
>> yes, sir.
>> you represent three of them, this is four. So whoever wants to come to the meeting, if we can get notice to them. If there's not a good meeting place out there, we can have it here at the -- at the ned granger administration building.
>> move to close the public hearing.
>> second.
>> all in favor? That passes by unanimous vote. Thank you all very much.
The Closed Caption log for this Commissioners Court agenda item is provided by Travis County Internet Services. Since this file is derived from the Closed Captions created during live cablecasts, there are occasional spelling and grammatical errors. This Closed Caption log is not an official record the Commissioners Court Meeting and cannot be relied on for official purposes. For official records please contact the County Clerk at (512) 854-4722.
Last Modified:
Wednesday, March 26, 2008 8:51 PM