Travis County Commissioners Court
September 25, 2007
Item 45
>> now, number 45 is to consider and take appropriate action for a plat for recording in precinct three, revised plat of lots 2, 3 4, 5, 6 and 7 and the partial cancellation of part of moon dance drive, siesta shores, subdivision 1 subdivision, two lots total. Feel free to come forward. We have county staff probably headed this way.
>> anna bowlen, Travis County tn r. After this project was last here at Commissioners court, we met on site along with tnr engineer teresa canukins, and we did look at drainage associated with the concerns. And we do have a commitment from mr. Rivers should this be approved, what measures he would take care of on his property to ensure that the drainage is conveyed through the lots. There's a second issue with regards to the fence or gate location and appearance. That issue has not been resolve.
>> that is the only issue that is still outstanding?
>> yes, sir. I believe, to my knowledge.
>> any disagreement with that?
>> no, it hasn't been resolved. And I had a question, which I asked annan about, when this drainage might be corrected. The response was that it would be tide to a permit for the construction of the new house. I don't know if that is five years from now, you know, if it's a month from now or ten years from now. So that is also a concern.
>> that is when, ordinarily in the development process, when the applicant would come in for a permit, that is the normal timing that we could see that. Obviously, the owner could make an agreement to do a drainage fix, tie it to some oath milestone other than when he order fairly would come --ordinarily would come in for a permit.
>> what is the exact language regarding the drainage fix?
>> in an e-mail that I got from the applicant, he says that if the proposed vacation passes, he will construct a culvert under moon dance drive along my revised property lines and divert rain runoff from lot 1 into the drainage easement mex to moon dance along lot 7 and 6 and 5 morder to alleviate the flooding problems of lot 1 caused by rainwater drainage off the higher elevations of moon dance drive.
>> when will the property owner do that?
>> I'll do it now.
>> that soon enough?
>> and when we were out there we did discuss with mr. Rivers that he would have to give us engineered information and get a permit for that. And that would be the next step in doing that now.
>> now mean very soon.
>> now means if the vacation passes, now means very soon.
>> actually, the county engineer pretty much designed it right on site in five minutes' time. So I'm really certain that this won't take time.
>> will that resolve the drainage issue?
>> I would be happy with that.
>> okay. The other issue regards the fence?
>> the fence or gate.
>> the gate.
>> okay. What's the issue with it now?
>> I believe that ms. White files that the location and type of a fence and gate would have an adverse impact on her property values. I will see if a gate, if the vacation happens and if a gate is going to be place beyond 150 feet of the intersection, then there would have to be some sort of a hammer head turn around. Right now I don't have a, you know, we don't have an application in for a gate across the property lines or any gate there. So I don't have information as to where a gate would be.
>> what's the plan for the gate?
>> the plan is just to block the road so that there's no portion impasse to --impassable to vehicles and gives me a frontage. So there is no gate per se planned cutting the road to put the culvert under there, I would probably create some sort of, with the rocks and whatever I remove, some sort of a barrier that would keep cars from being able to continue on down moon dance lane. That is an option. Not a gate. As I talked to ms. White and her dad about it, I could use rocks, landscape rocks that are big enough just to stop vehicles from continuing the roadyou want people to know that this is not a point to come beyond.
>> my insurance company is requiring me to do a much better job than I have done with signage and chains, telling them this is private property. I have to stop them basically from coming on to that base access to the waterfront is just something I have to stop.
>> how des that sound, ms. White?
>> we had talk off the phone, and what I wanted to hear or have, some sort of commitment that the gate would not be at the foot of my property. I'm not so worried about mr. Rivers, but I'm worried about the next prompt owner. He was unwilling to commit the property to what the next property owner could or couldn't do. That's my concern, is that the next property owner would put up a big, you know, gated entrance right at the foot of my property with god knows what, you know, big lights and all this sort of thing right at the foot of my property, and that concerns me.
>> would we expect a property owner to make commitments for the next owner?
>> if something is noted, well, the what of a commitment for the next owner.
>> okay.
>> any deed restrictions would be a commitment to future owners. Short of having a deed restriction or a plat note stating that there will be no gate at this location, that leaves it open.
>> so you do not want to see the gate where?
>> at the foot, directly at the foot of my property. I'd like to have a setback which when I asked him when we were on site where that gate might be, he walked it out and it was at the foot of what I guess is lot number 2 about 80 feet. But he is unwilling to commit to that for the next prompt owner--property owner. And that is my concern. He may not put anything up.
>> you are concerned about a huge ugly big old thing. Would a huge ugly big old thing require a permit to billed?
>> yes.
>> it seems like that issue might not quite arise and at the time that someone does make that , it seems speculative at this point. At the time that swun --someone does come in and wants to build a big large ugly thing, that would be the appropriate time to raise these objections. I see what you are saying, wanting to commit him and other other future property owners foreign the future, which is doable, but what are the chances?
>> Commissioners, there's also an architecturel review committee within siesta shores.
>> what restriction is there for anybody wanting to put a specific kind of gate? But ty is in the eyes of the beholder. It may not look nice to ms. White, but somebody may say, that is my family seal and is what I put up there. I don't want to see us get to a point where we can't work together. Obviously, I mean, I would think that ms. White should go over there with whoever the new owner might be and say, hey, I mean, tell me what you are going to do in the event that you are going to do something. I mean, would you please, you know, at least run it by me? I think most neighbors are kind of like, sure. If you just find something really, you know, abhorent here, let's work with it. I can see where you don't want to get to a spot with restrictions. Can't we work with that at the time. Right now we couldn't stop somebody from going and doing that on their property even if it weren't a situation like, I mean, ms. White may want to put something at her, you know, corner of her lot that just says you know, this is my land over here. Can't we work with that, ms. White?
>> my only concern is that, or where, how, with the fact that he's taking moon dance, with moon dance being a county road, had this was never a concern for me . Now it's a concern. Can I blame me for want to go add some sort of restriction? I don't don't have a problem with him taking, that's probably 200 feet or more of moon dance lane, which will enrich his promise. We're talking about three lots that will become probably a million dollar lot. I am probably a 250,000 prompt. This is very much enriching him more, his property more. I'm very concerned about what it does for my property.
>> if I were in your shoes, I too would be concerned. We didn't own the dirtlve we had had a county easement.
>> it was dedicated by plat.
>> dedicated by plat. Still, oh owns the dirt. That is the correct description?
>> part of moon dance has been excepted. The end where the cul-de-sac is, that was never built, and that is not--
>> that portion that is in play right now was never excepted.
>> well, part of the excepted part is being proposed and the unexcepted cull devac at the end all of that is being proposed to be vacated.
>> like I said, if I were myour shoes, I would have the same concerns. But in regard to the possible future gate, there is going to be some sort of barrier there.
>> there is going to be a barrier, right. I have not planned a gate. I have not planned a wall. The common property line is some 80, 100 feet, between the two. There's never been a wall built there. Renee doesn't want one, and I don't want one of the --want one. But I haven't had any trespassing. It's been up and down the county road. I think the told the commission,ers, the suggestion was to put decalls on the local cards so that on the siesta shores parks for the community access, they could stop some of the rampant trespassing but knowing what vehicles should and shouldn't be there. I got notice of the upcoming meeting, the board head heard that and liked the idea enough that they will vote on it. That is on their agenda. When they do put the decals on, people will be seen who find the lake on my property.
>> that is also steck lative.
>> yes, although much more present in time. I hear what you are saying, but this sound like an issue that has to be, that you would have to get voluntary concessions from your neighbor in regard to the aesthetics of a future gate.
>> I would be more concerned if we were out here in an area where we were worried about somebody building their gate by getting used tires and burying them halfway in the ground. If we are talking about one and two million dollar pieces of property, the only negative you may get is the reassessment of your property value, I mean which in itself is enough to make people, you mow, consider. But god, I think that we can work towards this. I mean, you know, we're at the point now where--
>> that is what I was hoping as well. I thought if we could agree on a setback, you know, I would be all right with all the this.
>> what size setback do you have in mind?
>> well, he had walked out 80 feet, and that is what I would ask for.
>> 80 feet would put the lot that I own next to renee's property and the lot that I own opposing that completely outside of anything that I billed--build. As it is right for you lateing those two lots doesn't page sense to me. I have those existing lot separated out now. But putting them together into two lots one on either side of the road with the property line down the center of the road I have taken six lots and turned them into two and I would have a portion of each of those outside of whatever gate or fence was decided to build in there. Right now, the fences can go in along the original property lines. It just leaves an area that should have been a cul-de-sac unaddressed. And that area as anne--a can tell you is just in the recall it doesn't allow a turn around when you get to moon dance lane of the to get the properties, I could put it on the property line, any type of fence, put the gate anywhere on my property along the sides of all six lots. Then nothing would change except for the fact that the road, which goes down and dead-ends where there should be a cul-de-sac, would go down and dead end into fences that are on my excessing property line of the that seems a better option for me than trying, petitioning the Commissioners to turn six lots into two only to leave one third of each of the lots hanging outside of fence protection.
>> what is staff's recommendation?
>> to approve--
>> what is the recommendation regardinging the barrier, fence, gate?
>> typically we wouldn't have a recommendation on that. We would hope that the applicant and the developer, sorry, the neighbor could come to a resolution.
>> I thought we did away with the typical at the last public hearing.
>> I'm sorry. Yes, sir.
>> I think we need to get back to typical. I would think that you have two reasonable people to work with on this thing. I realize that having a crystal ball is something that's difficult to do. But ms. White, I do not think that mr. Rivers is going to be unreasonable with this, and that he won't, if somebody buys the property, say I'd like for you to gopher and meet ms. White because she has some concerns and let at least have take an understanding. You know, I'm trying to be, you know, a good neighbor. I think that she is. I mean, there are some concerns about that. But let you work all that. What we need to do, we need to get the plat, you know, approved so we can move, so we can move forward on this thing, which would be my recommendation. And present that as a motion.
>> okay. The motion.
>> basically to take staff's recommendation and move forward with the notion that I think ms. White and mr. Rivers will continue to work on some of these issues that are of concern. I don't want had her property to be devalued at all, but I don't think that mr. Rivers has any intentions of doing that. Hopefully, you know, if somebody comes along and wants to buy that, go over and work with ms. Website and --white and say here is the deal. We did talk about in open court. I can't imagine somebody isn't going to be willing to work would the neighbor.
>> all right. We have agreement on the drainage. We're accepting that as far as the motion.
>> yes.
>> and on the construction of a fence barrier or gate, would that have to come back to the tnr?
>> they would have to come and get a permit application for a gate for whatever they are going to do on the land, yes, sir.
>> then that is where we have the ability to sit down and say okay, well, see if you can get ms. White happy. This is giving her a lot of heartburn to do this. I think that the drainage, can we say the drainage needs to be done within the next six months?
>> I'd be happy with the next year.
>> within the next year. Tie it to, find somebody that is going to be longer for you to get something done, but if a year is right for ms. White, to me that the reasonable.
>> ms. White, are you satisfied with what is proceeding here today as far as what is being recommended?
>> I suppose.
>> I mean really because, you know, you are supportive of what is going on here, then, I mean, what you say is very important as far as votes are concerned, in my opinion. So that is why I'd like to hear from you directly and give an affirmative answer one way or another. Are you pleased and satisfied with what is being recommended here today to assist as you go through this process.
>> I'm not sure if I'm totally satisfied, but it's, I understand the reasoning here. I was hoping to not have though the pack here someday in the future. And again, I'm not worried about what b o is going to do, mr. Rivers is going to do on the property. I'm worried more about the next guy.
>> I understand that.
>> any future owner would also have to come back be to us for permits in the building of a gate. So anybody, whether it's mr. Rivers or a future owner.
>> she doesn't want to come back. She doesn't want to have to get in the middle of this. And maybe you don't.
>> I flew in for 24 hours just for this from pare land--from maryland. This is getting a little tiring.
>> the issue of the gate, we don't have any drawings or specificity to look at from this point from which to negotiate.
>> that is correct. There are no plans.
>> when do you anticipate having such a thing?
>> what I wanted to do is put some rocks across the road big enough to stop traffic from coming down.
>> so it wouldn't be an issue for you.
>> not a gate issue, no.
>> so this could be literally years from now before we have specific design, before we would know for sure whether it was objectionable.
>> I suppose that there's some level of comfort knowing that they do have to come through this process of the I'm in the always sure that happens in our neighborhood. And I know when my house was build there was supposed to be a permit but the builder was told that no permit bass necessary. Turns out a permit was necessary. I had to pay the consequences almost 20 years later. So, you know, you never know what goes on in some of these little suburbs.
>> what can we do to satisfy her conflict as far as what she is proposing? It's a question that's posed to tn r. Just brought up some points. I would like to make sure that her comfort level is met. Tnr, can can you talk to me?
>> what I would say on to that, if mr. Rivers or subsequent buyers proposed to put in a gate or even a wall, they are going to be subject to getting a permit. Some of the things that we would be looking at during, whenever they were building either of those two things, would be the effect on the drainage, and depending on the distance from the intersection, they may or may not have to include some sort of a turn-around. But we would be looking to be sure that any permit application for a gate or fence or for whatever does not have an adverse impact on the transportation or drainage network. And we would encourage whoever is proposing the application to talk with their neighbors and, you know, have a dialogue and try to get their concerns out.
>> so language on the permit coming through and also if the land is ever flipped or the property is flipped to a new owner, there would be language that would prohibit, in other words, to satisfy what ms. White has suggested? How would that work?
>> well, there is a plat note, and it's a standard plat note on all plats that we do, a gopment --development permit is required prior to any site development.
>> right.
>> so that should already take care of does everyone know that there needs to be a permit. That is already on the plat.
>> ms. White, does that basically get you--
>> I suppose it would be up to myself or my father, who sends his regards, who lives in the neighborhood, to be aware that something is being built so that we can follow up to make sure there's a permit. Like I said, permits aren't always obtained for these sort of things in this area. They are often overlooked.
>> they are.
>> do you have ms. White's contact information?
>> yes, we spoke for about 30 minutes just the other night. I tried to convince her not to get on that airplane.
>> in the future if you could get a description of what is proposed, it may be possible to reach agreement and save you a trip.
>> can I add that certainly, you know, anyone in the county is preto contact me and just ask, okay, do we have a development application for this, you know, at this location or whatever. I'll let you know if we have anything or we don't. That's always, that's always an option for anybody.
>> unfortunately that is what we have to rely on, mis--ms. White.
>> exactly.
>> you're right, there are things like this. The mailboxes that are built in Travis County in the right-of-way because people want mailboxes to match their homes. My god, I mean, we've grappled with that for years on this kind of thing. So we would ask. Given the fact that somebody is going to know plat note-wise that they have to get a permit. I think that we will try to help in this situation.
>> sir, we didn't give you a chance to give comment today.
>> may name is nash gonzalez. I'm the consultant for mr. Rivers. I have all the technical information. I really don't have much to say other than he has met with the neighbors and met all the requirements. I think he has pretty well got it all cleared out with the exception of a gate. And I agree with mr. Rivers. They have an architectural committee that they have to go back to. I feel confident mr. Rivers will call her, send had her a letter, you know, requesting the permit, what have you, when he is ready to develop the property and so on. He has been doing everything the right way so far.
>> does your fatherre side on this property?
>> sorry ?
>> does he resideyes, --
>> yes, he does.
>> tell him we missed him today, by the way. Anymore discussion on the motion?
>> yes, I'd like to say, ms. White, I'm going to support this and I'm supporting it based on what I have heard you say and that there's a comfort level that I think has been achieved here. My concern was really the make sure that there is a comfort level with what tnr staff is going to do and with what mr. Rivers is going to do. I think there is a come forth level and I'm going to support this motion.
>> my comfort level will be with county.
>> right.
>> making sure that permits are pulled.
>> that's where we have some sa.
>> I have absolutely no comfort level with architectural committee.
>> I understand.
>> it's almost nonexistence if you have ever seen our neighborhood.
>> I'll lean more toward our county staff more so than anything else.
>> right.
>> they would be readily available from what I heard.
>> all in favor. That passes by unanimous vote.
>> thank you.
>> thank you all very much for getting together and trying the resolve this.
>> enjoy the leaves.
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Last Modified:
Wednesday, September 26, 2007, 18:30 AM