Travis County Commissioners Court
October 3, 2006
Item 32
Should I bring up the next item? That is 32. Consider and take appropriate action on sheriff's office request to Texas commission on jail standards for additional various beds. These numbers, I guess, drove the sheriff or inspired him to think that we may need additional beds, right, major?
>> yes, sir. The number we're asking for really is for late summer months. The jail commission won't meet until November. Hopefully by then the numbers will be down and I would in the need them anyway. But I'm really projecting for the future. As you all know, we're slightly delayed with getting the firm on board for the new facility. So that project is just slightly delayed, but it is delayed. And if the numbers continue to increase, then I'm going to need these beds for two, three months next summer and the summer after in '07 and '08. Now, I absolutely understand your position. You know, a lot of people think, well, if you open more beds, then more people will come into jail. The efforts that we have been attempting will dis discontinue. And i, I don't, I don't think they will. But the numbers are the numbers and they are increasing. The only alternative would then be if we were in a bind next, this time next year, would be to send them out of county.
>> uh-huh.
>> this is a less expensive proposition, in my opinion.
>> how many, are we sending any inmate out of county this summer?
>> nos.
>> my thought last--
>> no, sir.
>> my thought late last night, agonizing over the issue, was just that. How many variance [pw-etdz] do you have in mind?
>> 140.
>> what if we make sure that we have enough out of county money to send 140 out of county if we need to. I know we funded some in reserve. Probably at a level of about 100. And bill is coming this way. The question is if we wanted to say increase that to 150, and have kind of an informal ear mark against allocated reserve, bill, let me let you speak before I finish. [one moment please for change in captioners] ... But to leave it open and give ourselves an opportunity to address this issue again enough in advance of when we think we may need them, say, mid-summer to get some ruling from the state jail commission. The other thing when we go to them I think they will want to see an outline of what we've done to avoid the trip and request.
>> oh, absolutely they will. They will meet again in February and they will meet again in April. We can present variance requests at any of the quarterly meetings.
>> okay.
>> now, I wouldn't necessarily, depending on where the population was, I wouldn't want to wait all the way into June of next year, but we have an opportunity in February or April.
>> well, why don't we go ahead and let's tab it for April. By then we ought to see what the results have been between now and late March also.
>> yes, sir.
>> and we'll have those figures to work with.
>> yes, sir.
>> how does that sound? And then -- we should [inaudible] allocated reserve. We did at the last minute add another half a million dollars. If we lightly tap it, mr. Smith, and by lightly tap I mean between now and then be careful how we use it, okay?
>> .
>> million dollars. You have $3.7 million allocated reserve.
>> that is better news than I thought, chris. I'm glad I asked you to come to the table.
>> could you remind us, you were also asking for two other variances. One had to do with the mixing of folks within the health services building and some things related to square future ages. Did we act on those last week or did we not? In this case you are still asking for those and I don't think you want to wait for --
>> we did approve that portion of it.
>> so we're good to go on that.
>> I'll be happy to keep you all informed and April would not be too late.
>> now, there is another kind of delicate matter that I think we ought to look at and I'll be done, Commissioners, and that is at one time three or four months ago we kind of looked at best practices in other urban communities of Texas, and the question was who do they arrest and take to jail and who do they give some other official document without taking them to jail but to go ahead and initiate the criminal process. And I don't know whether we are in the year 2007 on what we do or not, but I do think we ought to look at that again and try to figure out whether there are better practices in some communities and try to figure out what results they have had, whether or not they increase the public safety risk as a result of the program or what. I feel a whole lot better concluding that we have taken all the steps we think we can reasonably take before depending on the need for more beds.
>> yes, sir.
>> I'm not blaming the sheriff for this, this is the rest of us really.
>> and the -- the task force, we have looked at, you know, certain charges and, you know, what you can do in way of summons versus arrest and things like that. And those are things that we still look at and we kind of wrestle with. What we really need to do is the biggest player we have in if community we don't have at the table. We don't have any representation from the Austin police department at our criminal justice coordinating committee, and we really need to get them to the table. Because those are the folks that would have to enact what you are -- and so we'll -- eye get with kimberly and --
>> that is exactly what I meant.
>> I guess I wasn't as delicate. We'll try to get the police department to the table. We'll speak with the new chief.
>> judge mckey is pretty much at our monthly meetings, but we do need some other representation.
>> and they need to be specific proposals that we surface because these things are working elsewhere. I mean and I'm just -- I mean I don't know it may well be that we're trying the best of initiatives. But I seem to recall two or three that were used in other Texas counties that had proven to be productive during our discussions about three or four months ago.
>> sure.
>> we can certainly take another look at that.
>> okay.
>> isn't there a provision in the interlocal agreement with the city where a number -- I mean a cost can be passed on to the city with a certain number above whatever we put in the interlocal?
>> that was in the old one. I don't believe that language is written into the new one.
>> well, if there isn't, then shame on us. I mean because the way you get the city at the table is with money. I mean and -- and I think that -- I think that management and apd would be willing to work with us. Bill, can you tell me --
>> the old agreement had that arrangement where if it went beyond a certain point then was a person by person charge.
>> right.
>> the new agreement is percentage driven relative to the volume that people bring in. So, for instance, if the city of Austin brings in 74% of the folks, which is currently the number last year, next year that percentage would be reevaluated based on the change in the volume. And my understanding of change of the volume is it's all or a big chunk of that is related to a.p.d. So their share will go up under the agreement because their share of the percentage as a whole will go up.
>> that's what I thought. That alone. I mean if these numbers continue to go up, it will not be difficult to get the city of Austin to the table. I mean and I'm happy to, you know, help wherever we need to make a phone call, I think we need to make a phone call, first to the city manager's office and say, you know, we need you at the table, you and whoever because this is absolutely the thing that we need. Let me ask on this variance bed thing, I'm missing something apparently. We have the -- the variance beds that we basically gave back or the large number that we gave back, you know, to the jail standards, we're wanting to go back up with that number in the event that we need them, right?
>> that's correct.
>> those beds right now either they don't exist sitting over there or if they do, there's no one in them. I mean we're not using them without asking, we're just saying in an anticipatory manner, jail standards, we want to know can we take back 140 slots if we need it. Isn't that what we're asking?
>> yes, sir.
>> then why -- I mean I do understand, judge, that you are saying, well, let's apply the pressure, you know, and if you don't have the beds there we know you are going to work harder because the beds aren't there. If that were the simple case, I might be supportive of that. But I'm certainly not supportive at $40 a day per person, you know, going outside, and I'm frightened because I think these numbers are headed in a direction that it's not an aberration, I think that these numbers are what they are and they are only going to continue to go that way. If that's the case, I mean I'd like to have the luxury of knowing that I had that, plus I'd like to have those beds that put somebody in them versus using the $312,000 first. I'd rather use the $312,000 few absolutely had to. That doesn't mean we're going to ask david to come in and say obviously -- I'd be the first person to ask because I'm sure the judge would go I told you that was going to happen and now the fact we've got those there, you know, I don't think that you've worked worked, you know, as hard as you need to. So if it's simply a matter of I don't want to ask the jail standards for the beds because I want to put more pressure on -- why are these called variance beds?
>> well, because they are supposed to be temporary. They are not supposed to be there at all. They are supposed to get you through emergency situations, only those times when you absolutely have to go over your design population. And the variance you are getting is because you are cutting back on all the other services that you are providing the inmates. Something as simple as the number of showers per person, you know, you are having more people use them. I don't like variance beds at all. They wear out our buildings much quicker and our systems much quicker. But they are called variance because the jail standards folks only believes you should need them for a very short period of time. Now, we've operated with them for, what, 12 years.
>> but you've got staffing requirements that are impacted.
>> oh, absolutely.
>> and we've got 1300 new beds coming and we hope to replace some old beds in poor condition, and if you are replacing 900 viewing area ance beds, you are not giving your self any added capacity. The other thing is it seems to me there are other steps we ought to take short of needing more beds. Now, we're not going to take those steps, we will need them. That's why I'm saying I wouldn't close the door. We give ourselves two shots at them. I'm not convinced if we had 150 more inmates in our facility that we don't have the same obligation to provide additional security, medication, food, et cetera, I think we'll end up spending the same amount of money roughly.
>> I think you will spend more, judge.
>> we'll spend more.
>> because it takes a while to hire up and staff up for corrections officers. And in the meantime folks have to work overtime. So there are costs related with these folks being in a variance bed because we also trigger, you know, the 1 to 48 still counts whether it's a variance bed or regular bed. And quite frankly, I think it will give you more flexibility to respond when you get who those numbers that are not good, they can be shipped out of our facility and it will be less stress on your folks, less overtime on your folks because these folks are still going to have to eat, get medicine, et cetera, et cetera. So it will allow you quickly to respond as opposed to, uh-oh, now we have to trigger hiring another eight correction officers. You can't have that happen in 24 hours. It's not going the happen. But we can get a bus to frio county in 24 hours or wherever.
>> that is if you are saying you know what, you've got 48 for every 1 of -- I guarantee you you can probably go to the jail right now and there are a number of places in the jail where you don't have 48 to 1. It's kind of like, okay, hey, you got 37 to 1 over here. Okay, you know what, you got room for 11 more over here. It just doesn't make sense to not use the space that you have. And you know what, wear it out. If it's wearing -- wear it out because we're fix to go get rid of it. Wear it out.
>> well, the only problem with that, Commissioner, is my variance -- [multiple voices]
>> the variance beds are in the three buildings we're going to keep. They are in one building that's planned to be torn down. But we're wearing out the buildings that we're going to keep and we're not going to tear down, our major buildings, our biggest buildings. The 140 that I'm asking for does create one new post. I put the other beds in areas where we already had the proper staffing, and it's -- but that's not a good way to operate the facility either. It's designed for 48. It has 76. We have two officers in there which meets the 1 to 48. We would increase from from 7 to 91. But having 91 inmates in a direct supervision setting is horrible. And we have to get a variance for that also because the standards say you should never have more than 48 in a direct supervision setting ever in any circumstance and we get a variance for that. Even though it doesn't create the staffing issues, it's just a horrible way to run a jail.
>> well, I mean I could probably buy off on that, david, if I thought we were going to run the jail from now on that way. We're talking about a variance, we're talking a short period of time.
>> that's true.
>> I mean I'm --
>> the last variance was 12 years. The last short time.
>> well, then, 8 years. It's been up and down.
>> my niece is 12 years old. Margaret and I have been here 12 years.
>> a short period of time. We're not anticipating but maybe one time this year that we may need that. I mean I think that we can gut up and take, you know, and god for bid somebody might be inconvenienced incarcerated.
>> that's not the issue. We're not worried about inconveniencing anyone. I mean, you know, jail standards wouldn't give us the variance if they didn't believe we could comply with all the sanitation, security conditions and we can. I'm thinking more towards my staff. It's just a stress-related issue to them.
>> [inaudible].
>> the last we checked with out of county, we have two contracts, one with frio and -- somebody is whispering to me. I can't hear. Limestone. Thank you. Frio is full. They have no room. They were $37 a day. Limestone is $40 a day and they do have room. The last time we called, they could take 100. I'm sorry, sir?
>> you know the capacity of limestone county?
>> they have enough to take 100. $40 a day and they transport.
>> and they do the transporting.
>> they do the transporting. Commissioner Sonleitner is correct, I could call them and say be here tomorrow and they would be here tomorrow. They would be here tomorrow with a bus. They would take 100. If I can find 100, which --
>> did we set up -- how much money did we set aside for out of county if needed?
>> 300,000.
>> 312.
>> 312,000.
>> 312.
>> plus -- [inaudible].
>> when we put more money in there, we said we may need this for out of county jail. I'm saying that if we -- if we look 30, 60 days out and we can calculate we're going to have an inmate problem, we got the find something to do with them, we can look at our situation and look whether it's better to bring them here and get the variance or try to contract with an out of county facility. Then we will know too whether the out of county facility has space available. As far as I know they are not saving space for us for late next summer.
>> they are doing a good business with the state.
>> right.
>> I just think it sends the wrong message to jail standards because we've been working very collaboratively with them and they have been very gracious? Graciousin terms of more than a decade in terms of these variances. We have a construction plan, it's been approved by voters and to me it's like we continue down that path and as the safety valve for the major because that is the concern. It's not what the inmates are going to go through, it's what his staff is going to go through in terms of the stress on them and the things that back up related to overtime and losing out on their vacation days, et cetera, et cetera. It's stressful to work in that environment when it's normal. We don't need to add anything more, and you can quickly respond when you have spikes if we go out of county and I think it will be less expensive to respond to the spikes as opposed to having to staff up for something that was supposed to be temporary.
>> that would be like you having a bedroom for your child and you have another child and you go, you know what, I think I need to just go ahead and build the other room. I mean versus -- you know, I don't know what I'm going to do with this house, I don't know whether I'm going to stay in it, I'm going to put a bunk bed in there. I'm going to put a spot -- is it going to take another parent, you know, going to work to put another meal on the table? I mean it is hard to -- it's going to be hard to convince me that it is from a comk economical standpoint not looking at using every available place, every corn their we have to stick somebody and especially if it's for a short period of time. I don't understand why we would do that versus, you know, spending the $312,000. Now, I guess I'm in agreement that, judge, you say hey, we're probably not going to have this happen to us overnight and I'm -- and we're willing to look at it again before we were to sign off on sending them out of county. I mean that maybe does keep the pressure on our folks and say, hey, you know, we're not going to give you these variance beds, but if I'm our folks they are going they are not going to give us variance beds but I did hear them talk about sending them out of county so I'm not worried about that either. Either way the pressure is there. I would like to not spend the 312 and put them everywhere I can here, obviously not endangering our corrections people, but if that's the case -- let's face it, I mean, a lot of the folks we have out there, david, are the ones that every time that I've gone out there, it's not like you've got, you know, people in just mayhem. I mean if somebody -- if you got somebody that's over there and they've got 92 versus 96, I mean the corrections guy is not any more stressed if you put three more in there. Oh, my god, you are getting close to the 48 to 1. That's not the case so I don't --
>> no, I understand, but I think we have quintuplets, I don't think we have the one extra bed.
>> how many variance beds do we have right now?
>> 721.
>> 721. You add 140 to that, that's what?
>> 836.
>> 861.
>> it's not like you got zero variance beds.
>> if they are willing to give them to us.
>> well, I mean, I will be happy to, you know, keep you all abreast of our population as I always do and April is not too late to come back and petition you again.
>> in anticipation of the April meeting we can make the call.
>> absolutely. Absolutely. Sure. That works.
>> okay. Thank you.
>> thank you.
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Last Modified:
Wednesday, October 4, 2006 4:29 PM