Travis County Commissioners Court
June 6, 2006
Item 2
2. Public hearing to receive comments regarding a request to authorize the filing of an instrument to vacate a portion (0.07 acres) of the cedar street right of way in the hughes park lake subdivision #1 precinct 3.
>> move to open the public hearing.
>> second.
>> favor all in favor? Passes unanimously.
>> [indiscernible]
>> okay, just one minute. Joe.
>> this is the not the fire time that we have seen cedar street.
>> don't remind us, job.
>> this has been part of our substandard road program many, many years ago. It's basically an old subdivision that was designed before -- before the -- before the county had authority to regulate subdivisions and so it's not -- it's not a well designed -- street layout. And it's on a -- it's on some fairly difficult terrain. So the streets are in places that today wouldn't be built if -- if we were -- if they were built today. But -- but with that said, we do have the subdivision and we have some property owners who are asking that a portion of cedar street be vacated. As you may recall, maybe some months back, we vacated just a half of the roadway. And it reverted to the adjoining property owner. This is not -- this is another piece of cedar street between 3 lots. The property owners in these three lots are asking that we vacate this one section of cedar street between their lots. What -- what it effectively does is close that -- that section of cedar street between the subdivision and park avenue. Park drive, excuse me. And that's the steep -- the steep part of the roadway that goes down and -- and has some erosion problems. It's not really a -- not really a passable public thoroughfare because it is such a steep roadway. And -- and there's some concern addressed or raised about the safety, people come there and park and get down part way, they can't get back up. They can't get through because of the steepness of the roadway. So we have been presented with a -- with a petition to -- to say indicate the right-of-way on cedar street and you will hear today that there are probably pros and cons on both sides of this issue. The purpose of this public hearing is to hear -- along with the citizens -- what the citizens in this area have to say about the proposed vacation.
>> from the staff's perspective, is it a good idea?
>> it's got some -- some burrs on it, certainly not a straightforward recommendation. We do see the safety arguments and it has been an ongoing issue with regard to people getting in there and parking and -- and this is probably something that the staff could have come down on either way. It's a long standing problem. It's -- keeps coming back. We don't know whether this is perhaps the last stop. When we do vacate it, it becomes private property, so there is no public thoroughfare remaining. That -- that -- that perhaps the best way to -- to deal with it in -- on a permanent basis.
>> joe, just for clarification, the three people who are requesting the vacation, are all of the adjacent property owners the only people who are -- who are adjacent and would have rights to get that half of the road back and reattached to their properties?
>> that's correct. But legally, you have three separate lots. And it is the lot 100 that is really probably a little problematic. They are going to now draw their legal access from -- from park drive from the remaining half piece of roadway that -- that provides that access, so that's the only -- even though they could have a private drive, going across the -- across what's being vacated, but there's an adjoining property owner or adjoining lot which is 109, that is owned by the same person at this point in time, if he ever sells the lot 100, then you have a separate property owner, basically have the access issue.
>> is there any situation here that a -- that I will call it a spike strip for lack of a better phrase, could be set up and that lot number 100 could be land locked?
>> it's -- it's legally -- no. Practically, you do have a steep incline on the remaining open piece of property thoroughfare that's -- that has access by way of park drive.
>> okay. Just --
>> so the action we took back in September did not affect what's before us today?
>> no.
>> but it may have set a precedence for this request.
>> as a matter of fact, judge, I think that what we did previously is -- is probably the reason that really -- that really created the -- the desire from the people wanting to do this because what we really did is we took half of -- of the street on the lower part of -- of cedar street, which really, I mean, renders it next to impossible to go down and use as a through street now.
>> right.
>> so -- so it is -- I mean, it's practical why some of the people would be asking, you know, for this, but I know that we have got some people that want to weigh in on it.
>> what's the staff recommendation?
>> it will be vacated.
>> how many are here on this item? I see four. Can you all slide down.
>> if you would come forward at this time, give us your full name, we would be happy to get your comments. I知 interested in really two issues, I guess the court may have questions afterwards, but why is it a good idea or not a good idea. How will it help or you how would it harm you.
>> not everybody at once.
>> can you hear me? My name is sandra williams, even though they seem to not think that I知 add an adjoining property owner, I am, I own lot 193 which is adjacent to lot 99 which is on the corner of cedar and thomas at that intersection. The reason why I知 here today is because I know that there's a lot of background information on this, but a -- originally the -- the problem is not a draining problem. The drainage problem was alleviated when their substandard road was completed back in 1999 or whatever. The only drainage problems that we are having now are because the property owners adjacent to that land has decided since the county was not maintaining it that every time they wanted something, parking or to drive through, they would regrade it. And so -- so the -- the actions of the property owners themselves caused the current drainage problems. Really, the only problem that we have ever had there since the substandard road was put in was the parking problem. Because the barricades are 129 feet from my driveway. The county paved 100 of those feet and I had requested that they put up proper signage, which was never done, to let people know when they were coming down cedar and down thomas, that it was a dead end street. And that they would have to make arrangements to -- to slow down, turn around and keep going. That signage was never put up. When the -- so in effect people would park down at barricades, because coming down that street, if you are coming down at any speed, you could not see any signage, they would almost hit whatever was parked down there at the barricades and that created the mess that we have down there. When -- when this issue came before you for the vacation of the other part, I tried to explain that and again I asked, even if you vacate what you vacated the last time, you still need proper signage, which again they put a dead end sign on my property, on my side of the street, which I explained to them there's a -- there's an intersection here. You can't put a sign on one side of the street because only one flow of traffic will see that sign. But because no -- didn't want any property, any signs on any other property on this property, we had the same problem. Them could not see the sign. And they still can't see the sign. I have pictures and I can show you if you drive down there, you cannot see the sign, if you can't see the sign, yes, there is a hazard problem. If proper signage was put up there, so that everybody -- and signage saying no parking, so that people won't park in the turn around zone, that was created when they put in a substandard road, we would not have this problem. But because the people at the end of that corner do not have enough parking spaces on their property, they are using the street for parking. Which is causing the hazard. And they won't put up the signs saying no parking and dead end turn around right here. That's what creates the problem. What you are asking for today is to vacate that property up to thomas, which in effect comes to the end of my property -- to my property line and what's going to happen is then they are going to be turning around right in the front of my driveway and even though it's not going to be any signage, I知 pretty sure that there's going to be a fence or something. Right in the middle of the road, and at the back of my driveway, and you are going to have the same problem, it's just going to move it up until the front of my driveway and because I知 at the intersection I can't ask for a vacation. So you are giving everybody a vacation up to my driveway to create the problem for me only. I have been dealing with this problem for 10 years. And every time it's on the agenda, I致e come here and I have explained it, I have asked you all to come out and look at it. I get the same result. This vacation is going to create the same problem, it's just going to move it up the road. The problem can be alleviated by putting the proper signage on that street and demanding that the homeowners on that street abide by the rules like everybody else. That's what the problem is. Because I have signage on one side of my property that says no parking. That's when this whole problem arose, when I came and got those signs put up, because they were using the side of my property to park. Because I have three lots on the cedar street. Which allows for a larger space to park and I had trees up so that you couldn't see from my house. That's what created the problem, when my soonage went up, signage went up, all hell broke loose, that's why we have the problem here. It's a parking problem, not a drainage problem. The drainage problem was caused by the building that was built since this road was put up. We knew what the topography was. When they built and they should have -- the builders should have arranged for that. That's not something that the county is responsible for. That's all that I have to say. Thank you.
>> do you agree, do you agree with ms. Williams that -- has this is is a parking issue and that signage would -- would take care of -- of some of these things?
>> I知 not sure that I really have a comment on that?
>> okay.
>> does that --
>> [indiscernible]
>> no comment.
>> do you agree or don't you agree?
>> no opinion?
>> some county staff person had to have an opinion. I mean --
>> [indiscernible]
>> whoever county staff person has been working on this --
>> I will ask him if he has an opinion on this.
>> we will call on him fifth.
>> very good.
>> can I tell you the name of the person? Mr. Case is the inspector that comes out there every time I call and he is the one that put the sign up and then took it down.
>> what number is your lot again?
>> my lot is 191 and 192 and 193.
>> judge [indiscernible] [inaudible - no mic] right here.
>> I have a map and pictures if you need to see it.
>> okay.
>> yes, sir?
>> yes. I知 steve martin and -- and I just wanted to -- to recap what you said and I have -- I have like -- photography here that you can clearly see that it is a parking issue. You can clearly see here that it's not other people besides the neighbors. It's the neighbors that's dealing with the sheriff's department, the neighbors that dealing with blocking off the roads. And -- and the point that she made for -- for -- it's going to be even more of a problem right here in front of our driveway at the turn around zone. The part that you vacated we clearly have what the -- what the -- what the inspector right here said earlier about -- about is there some kind of reason that somebody is going to be vindictive? Well, you see, in clear print right here in photography, there's a fence in the middle of a vacated road.
>> that's the one that's they approved last time.
>> that's the approval.
>> if we vacated it, it became somebody's property I guess, it no longer was public property. Became --
>> right. So basically I知 just saying that, you know, either we can solve the problem with the proper signage, the signs here that you can't see, I have clear photography showing that if you are coming down the street, you clearly can't see the sign because it's on the wrong side of the road. You know, it's like we have a four-way stop. And you have a stop sign on two sides of the road, and then you have the other two signs on the same side of the road. Nobody can see the stop sign when they come up because everybody is -- don't drive on the left side of the car. They drive on the right side.
>> I知 missing something here. Why would the sign on ms. Williams' property not be replaced with one that shows the -- the bend in the road and it goes to the left? It would not be a dead end anymore. A dead end to me says you need to turn around because there's no more way out. People coming down cedar street would just take a left on thomas and keep going.
>> that's what I tried to explain to him.
>> but it doesn't matter whether that's vacated or not. That's the sign that would replace it because it isn't a dead end. You have an out on thomas street. The question is does the vacation of cedar street help or hurt that position? I知 not understanding why the vacation of cedar street interferes with any of this?
>> because it's going to become a parking -- it's going to become their driveways.
>> so --
>> [multiple voices]
>> because the --
>> if it's vacated, it belongs to them. If that becomes the driveway legally to 119, 99 and 100, so? It belongs to them.
>> right. So what's going to happen is you are going to have parking there.
>> so it's on their property?
>> it's on their property. I don't think you understand.
>> no, ma'am, I actually do because I had to work on cedar street for a zillion years.
>> okay. My understanding was they were going to still leave a walking place because that still is the walking trail for the neighborhood.
>> absolutely.
>> at the last commission hearing they said no matter what they did with that space they were always going to leave a walking trail for the neighborhood. That's the way the neighborhood gets to the park --
>> I don't recall that discussion hearing.
>> you don't remember that discussion?
>> no, ma'am.
>> is that part of what's being us today or is that last time.
>> I assumed any decisions that you made the last time stays, you just add on to it.
>> how does today's -- how would granting the request before us harm you I guess is the question?
>> okay. It will harm me because the way --
>> wait, let's let mr. Martin finish.
>> okay.
>> let mr. Martin finish, we will go to the other two, we will come back to for you a brief second opportunity.
>> mr. Martin, you own which property?
>> which property.
>> aim property.
>> okay. Trying to keep that straight.
>> same property.
>> I知 trying to figure out how does it harm you and your enjoyment of your property.
>> basically I have photographs here that shows -- that shows --
>> ms. Williams go ahead and say it for him, it will expedite matters.
>> I was going to say the same thing, she can go ahead and say it if you like.
>> I知 sorry. [laughter] the edges of my driveway, it will abut, you will have three entrances to three driveways at an intersection of a street.
>> so?
>> if you don't think that's a problem --
>> okay. Keep you from accessing your property?
>> no?
>> is that what you are saying.
>> right. If somebody is parked in front of their driveway, I can't get in mine.
>> right.
>> you never have an intersection -- you never have driveways abutting at an intersection. You are going to have three driveways interjecting and the thomas street house is not even a cedar street house. So you are going to have three driveways. Generally if there was going to be two driveways on cedar street, they would be adjacent to each other. They would not be abutting them like this. They would both be going the same way. So it would be continues traffic. If somebody has to stop to get in their driveway, they are going to block the other driveway in.
>> to add to that, like what I was going to say the same thing, I have photographs here that shows -- that shows that when you vacate that, it's going to harm us even more because by putting the barricades up like you had before, they took the barricades down, it's people -- people not -- people that don't live there, it's neighbors parking already in the street that you haven't n't vacated, it's neighbors parking where the barricades was for the other entrance to the other property jeants to lot 100 -- adjacent to lot 100, if you vacate it, the neighbors enter from park street, so now not only that, you have a problem with -- with somebody coming, supposedly from park, which there's no entrance on park that you vacated. And not only that, you have a problem with us getting to our lot because you have -- you have one parking space, which I have pictures here, that they don't even live on that street, they live on thomas. And you have -- you have a second parking space across the street at 12806 cedar street, then you have a vacated parking spot that's going through cedar street to where the barricades was. So it's going to hurt tremendously. In addition --
>> what's our response to --
>> but the utility easement is even more so.
>> okay. What's our response -- what's the staff response to those issues? Access to their property.
>> that's not [indiscernible] came out there.
>> traffic engineer.
>> okay.
>> t.n.r. Traffic engineering, I have met with ms. Williams a couple of times. We -- we had put up no parking in front -- entire length of her property to -- owe to take care of the issues with the people park and blocking her driveways. We also placed a dead end sign with an advisory distance of -- says 100 feet. That's on cedar street, to let people know that it does dead end ahead. As far as signage goes?
>> access to her property.
>> access to her property. -- there is still no parking in fronts of her property, the entire length. I don't see how anyone could block her driveways by parking.
>> what you would like to get today, is the good neighborly assurance from your neighbors, that they will not deny you access to your property, number one. And that you would like for the county to assist. Would that solve this problem?
>> yes. The only thing that I知 concerned about is that I have access to my property and that, you know, it not be blocked at 2:00 in the morning.
>> let's turn to your good neighbor right now.
>> but I know that you don't have the authority to -- [multiple voices]
>> hold on.
>> yes, sir?
>> if we blocked anyplace along her property --
>> name?
>> my name is steven buckrock. She could call the sheriff and have us ticketed or towed away. Ideal we do something that -- why would we do something that stupid.
>> that's your way of saying you will not block access to her property.
>> correct, sir, correct, never have, never will. The only person that has ever parked along the property is mr. Martin, I can show you the oil stain on her street to prove it.
>> mr. Grier, what can we do to -- to facilitate the good neighborly one of -- saying basically we can get that.
>> how can we make sure that that happens?
>> I guess enforcement of the no parking signs.
>> there's one other thing, because the sign on ms. Williams property that says dead end now, whether this gets vacated or not needs to be turned to one that says that the road takes a left bend. Because saying dead end gives the impression that thomas street is also a dead end and somebody needs to take that opportunity to turn around right now. It's called just turning down thomas street. Why are we making assumptions that -- that there -- they are just not trying to go to thomas street to begin with or get out of the neighborhood. If thomas street were a dead end, then we would have a serious problem because then we would want to get people turned around as quickly as possible. I知 not understanding why, regardless of this vacation, which I am in favor of, why we aren't right now putting up a sign that says road bends. Otherwise you are setting up people without -- that are not familiar with that area, they are -- they either live there, trying to find lake property, lakeview, take a cool pick. If you are not familiar with this neighborhood, you don't have a nap, you would need a sign saying dead end sign, saying thomas street as well dead ends, turn around now because it's not going to get any better.
>> I guess that the dead end sign is pretty much at the intersection, it states that it dead ends 100 feet ahead, because the road does continue for another 100 feet. It is a legal road. The road does not turn left as an intersection from the side we could maybe put an intersection ahead sign. If we vacate all the way up to thomas street then the sign would be the barricades and also a sign saying dead end 100 feet, that sign would be moved further up cedar street. I think it's pretty clear as you come up to the -- to the intersection that there is a road off to the left.
>> but --
>> you can take --
>> it can be confusing if you are not familiar with that area. Maybe that you know --
>> can we look at the site --
>> in the middle eastern time I am in favor in of --
>> we have looked at it several times.
>> I知 happy with it.
>> let's go out, review the situation, see if question improve the signage. Legally we authorize to vacate the condition upon -- upon -- a certain thing --
>> [indiscernible]
>> not blocking access to other lots?
>> I知 not sure where you are headed with that. Vacation conditioned on something, what you are doing is -- is you are saying we are willing to vacate it, if a certain prescribed event happens. If that proscribed event happens, your vacation becomes effective. I don't think you can condition a vacation on something not happening. Because then you have never vacated it.
>> did we give you a chance to finish.
>> I was going to say the 100-foot sign is appropriate, because at this point it is 100-foot down the road. But when that is vacated all we need to do is put a right turn sign there to show people that they have to turn right at that corner. We can put on it the same post with the dead end sign. [one moment please for change in captioners]
>> this will be action item number 9 on today's agenda.
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Last Modified:
Wednesday, June 7, 2006 12:54 PM