Travis County Commissioners Court
January 10, 2006
Items 2 and A2
Let's go back at mr. Baldwin's request, pick up item no. 2. Which is to consider and take appropriate action on order declaring local disaster to address the potential threat of wildfires due to drought and adverse weather conditions, banning the use of com bussible materials, including fireworks and outdoor environments pursuant to section 418.108 of the Texas government code. And a related added item, which is a 2. A 2 a is to set fees for operational permits, for welding and hot works under the fire code sections 105.6.12 and 105.6.24. And a 2 b, authorize the issuance of permits for welding and hot works under the fire code sections 105.0612 and 105.06.24, to accommodate safe business practices consistent with the order declaring local disaster and we indicate there this item may be taken into executive session pursuant to the consultation with attorney exception to the open meetings act.
>> good afternoon.
>> good of noon, judge and Commissioner, pete baldwin, Travis County emergency management coordinator. Sometimes delay is good. You have to chance to work through a few issues and what I just handed out and I apologize, you have not had a chance to look at that. That is a com pills of the disaster -- compilation of the disaster declaration we originally passed. However if you turn the page, go to page 2, starting at number 6, we have addressed the welding and hot works issues. Basically we are saying those items are prohibited outdoors, unless one of two conditions are met. One is they are permitted, they have a permit from the fire marshal's office under the fire code. Or they meet the parameters laid out in a through i. Which basically lays out a lot of the safety issues involved with any kind of welding operations. We've had a chance to review this with the attorneys, bush break wilson and jim connally. This would address the welding issue that says that it can be done outside if these conditions are met. A couple of ones that we really wanted to emphasize, though, were -- in item g we say that no welding or grinding operations or hot [indiscernible] is allowed on days designated and red flag warnings days. Basically they are issued by the national weather service which winds are expected to exceed 20 miles per hour and humidities are expected to drop extremely low. Even with safety precautions we felt like that was a prudent thing to be doing anyway. Of course these are for outdoor welding operations. If someone has a shop that they are welding in, these don't apply. But we are talking about outdoor activities. So we also have a statement in there that they should contact their local emergency service district, fire department, each day to let them know that we are going to be welding here. That also gives them a chance to determine that there is a red flag warning.
>> is there a red flag warning today?
>> no, sir.
>> and if I -- so if I -- if I’m a welder and I want to know whether a certain date is a red flag warning day, I simply look in the phone directory for the listing for the national weather service and I call that number and somebody will tell me.
>> they will either tell you that you can do that or you can call the local esd's, they will know. But if you have noticed, I don't know if you have watched many of the morning news shows, all of the locals, nearly all of the radio stations and tv stations now are indicating red flag warning days. That has become a new national weather service product. That they have started really pushing this year, it's being highly advertised that that is not a hard item to find.
>> winds of more than 20 miles per hour?
>> yes, sir.
>> what's the other criterion.
>> the relative humidity has to drop, I would think is it below 20%? I believe it's below 20%. Okay. So -- so if they cannot meet these requirements, though, that were needed to contact our fire -- they will need to contact our fire marshal and get a permit.
>> yes, sir.
>> is there a fee already in place?
>> there is a fee that we would rely on in place if you wanted to, but it's at -- it's just -- it just says other permits. It doesn't talk about welding, it doesn't talk about hot works, it doesn't make it clear that you need to have a permit for each location. So we were proposing to amend the fair code to clarify the per location issue and to describe welding and hot works more specifically. Is there something that would give us comfort as to how the $208 figure was arrived at. On first blush someone would go whoa, help -- help walk us through that, please.
>> Travis County fire shall, yes, Commissioner, all of the fees that are -- that are part of the fire code are based on an hourly rate and with -- with this permit or like any permit we have to review the application and ensure that everything is correct, review the safety plan that's provided and then we have to go physically out to the site and inspect it to ensure that they are going to deal with what their plan says that they are going to do before we can sign-off on the permit.
>> it's based on a cost per person schedule that we have already got in use on other parts of the fire code, it is based on what we think are the proportionate hours and time that will be necessary to complete that task. Based on our per hour com compilation of what it should cost.
>> yes, ma'am.
>> realistically, if you don't know these requirements or can't meet them, and they call you and you say $200, 208, we will probably go ahead and do the welding anyway, won't they?
>> I think that's why we went ahead and gave the other options here to follow a through --
>> I know. If they can do those, you will never hear from them.
>> if they do those, that's fine. And what I anticipate happening, judge, is that larger corporations would have -- would go through our office because they are more comfortable with that process and are used to that. The -- the mom and pop type of sole proprietor type thing --
>> two weeks com back and let us know how the fee is going and weather anybody asked for a permit. What we should do is meet the standards here I guess.
>> the standards that were set forth in these were for those people that if they need to weld a piece on their tractor, fence building, some operation like that that we encourage them, say you have to meet these safety standards, we also put that other option in there for the permit so if you have a large construction site going on somewhere, they are going to be welding there for the next two weeks or whatever building that -- that it may be a lot easier for them to come in and get the permit and say we are going to clear this -- you know, we want this site licensed for welding. We wanted to provide that option. But we fully expect that most -- most smaller operations will meet these -- these standards.
>> but they can wet down the immediate area. If there's no grass there are they covered?
>> if they do that, also, sir, several options in there, but one of them is they have to have another person stand by watching. They have to have more or less a fire watch to watch what's going on, along with the fire suppression, a minimum fire suppression equipment which says the pressure rised water, basically a garden sprayer has to be on site, also.
>> so you have to do all of these things?
>> yes, sir.
>> [laughter]
>> you are just asking for somebody to go out here and weld, what's the penalty, what happens if they get -- if you all are just driving by, you go there's somebody out there, what's the -- what's the fine?
>> that's part of the order on page 3. It's a class c misdemeanor, $500 fine.
>> the more important thing is they may just burn down their house, their surrounding property and their barns and everything else. I’m mindful of the last big fire we had down in the creedmore area, a man who didn't know about the bans, but he actually thought my goodbyes I need to have my fire extinguishers here. But he was by him, it just so quickly happened that even with his fire extinguishers, he couldn't get to it fast enough. So having that extra set of eyes, but there's the real penalty. Hi, burn down your house and everything that belongs to your neighbors.
>> that's true, but I mean I -- I think that it's -- I think that it's unfortunate --
>> [indiscernible]
>> that's what we expect people to do is use their common sense. But I don't think that it's right given that we have this crazy condition that we have with dryness, we expect small business people to have to pay $200 to get a permit.
>> half of that is fair I think. [multiple voices]
>> where did we get these criteria?
>> tarrant county is using them.
>> where did tarrant county get them in.
>> that I don't know, we got them off their website.
>> they seem to make sense. Wouldn't you guys be looking for compliance. Let's say that you see the wildcat welder, wouldn't you come up and say, stop? Please do all of this stuff and heres the list and then continue on. I mean it's not like you are going there to try to issue a citation. You are looking for voluntary compliance, aren't you? Please reassure me.
>> yes and judge they are published these criteria are published by one of the fire training programs that are out there. So they pick these -- they don't pick these out of the air.
>> these come from the fire training manual.
>> yes.
>> produced by --
>> ipsa, international fire safety training institute, ifsti, located in oklahoma.
>> okay. I think $100 would be a lot better than 208. Hope we don't get any because people find this list, comply with them --
>> your honor, we've had six requests from corporations already, one in permit operations to my office, I know that some other people have gotten calls also. That's why there's the other option of following a through I which doesn't follow a fee.
>> I would go with cost per coverage, judge, it's not that much more, more formalized folks are doing.
>> if I’m a small operator, I think $200, I think you are just encouraging people to go about -- hey here's what we'll have, I mean, let's see what we have in the next two weeks in a corporation, not counting corporations, I would be willing to bet ya $10 right now that you don't get one call in and say hey I want to come down there and pick up that $200 permit. What that's telling you, you know that that is not meaning -- that no one in Travis County is welding.
>> that means that they are going through a through I which is fine.
>> no, I don't think that's what it means at all.
>> if our goal is to promote compliance with this or getting a permit inspection by the fire marshal's office, basically some better assurance of safety than I think the fee ought to be down to where it's affordable. If is sort out of the clear blue. People haven't budgeted. For a lot of folks 200 wouldn't be too much. For some people it is. I would like --
>> cost recovery and this is where we have been trying to get cost recovery.
>> I would rather see us eat half of this and hopefully promote fire safety and no fires and hope it rains so we don't need this order in place anyway.
>> 100 bucks judge.
>> sounds good to me.
>> I would second that. Is this going to affect your part-time job that you were telling me about the other day, this welding deal that you have been taken on.
>> we do not discuss wildfires with ms. Ford because she has had to call the Austin fire department to her home on multiple occasions. [laughter]
>> I have a personal problem, sir. [inaudible - no mic]
>> just a joke.
>> we have the order in place. [laughter]
>> two incidents and two homes.
>> three.
>> specifically what it is. Right?
>> I -- actually, the order that you were presented today differs from the order that you currently have in place, so you would need to approve this version of the order because the order that you currently have in place has no 6 in it at all.
>> okay. Send me a specific site. We need to be able to say we pulled it from the training standards, you can find them wherever the manual is.
>> what's the deal that no one complies with what we are doing here today on this particular if somebody doesn't comply, they are going to do what they are going to do anyway. [multiple voices] what's the enforcement leg of this -- if they don't comply at all.
>> enforcement is the same as it is in outdoor burning, class c misdemeanor up to a $500 fine. That's why we said that they have to call into their local fire department every day, that way the fire departments know just like a controlled burn, they know where they are.
>> okay.
>> if they don't call in and one of the local fire departments comes by, finds them, then they can say, by the way, did you know this was in place and you need to comply with it or you can get a ticket for it? It's an educational process certainly up front, any time that we do an outdoor burning ban, any time we do fireworks restrictions, the first week or so is primarily an educational process to make sure that everyone knows that we have got these regulations in place.
>> okay. So this is basically just included with everything else that we have and also then enforcement leg of it as far as violating this will still be that class c misdemeanor up to a $500 fine.
>> judge, is -- is number 2 the new order that he just gave us and a to a and b with the c readjusted downward to $100, to report back to us in a couple of weeks about compliance/inquiries.
>> my motion is to approve the prepared order declaring local, state of disaster and prohibiting use of combustible materials and setting the fee at $100 and we get a report back in -- in two weeks. And that you let us know in two weeks how many permits have been applied for. Okay? My question I guess if you get a permit, and a fire occurs near where you were working, then it's simply almost per se an accidental fire unless we can show arson or something like that.
>> or they don't follow the plan or for safety issues response to [multiple voices]
>> and amending the fire code to -- to include the new fees?
>> doing that, too. Amending the fire code to include this fee. So the -- an other is still there, although this is one that's specifically set forth.
>> yes. And what I would do is -- is revise the order so that you have got the order for a 2 with the new fee amount in it.
>> okay.
>> the question has been asked is how long would it take to get a permit. I will defer to the fire marshal to answer that.
>> it shouldn't take very long. It depends on the workload that we currently have, how many permits come in and we won't know, we will have a better idea of that as time goes on. If we only have six or seven that come in per week, shouldn't be a big deal. But if we get 30 or 40, then we will let you know obviously, keep you up to speed on how this process is going.
>> the 10 bucks --
>> yes, sir. [laughter]
>> 30 or 40. Maybe 200.
>> will you break down on -- when you -- the corporation versus individuals or, you know, small business/individual.
>> yes, sir.
>> questions or comments? All in favor? That passes by unanimous vote.
>> thank you.
>> pete, we send all orders to them --
>> I will take care of that as soon as I get your signed copy, sir.
>> okay. Do I have the original?
>> for the -- for the order declaring local disaster? That's in your signature packet, three copies.
>> all right.
>> that's a good, safe place for it.
>> that's right.
>> we will have it ready for you soon, pete.
>> thank you goes sir.
>> thank you judge and Commissioners.
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Last Modified:
Wednesday, January 11, 2006 7:25 AM