Travis County Commissioners Court
December 27, 2005
Item 9
9. Consider and take appropriate action regarding a plat for recording in precinct three: revised plat of lot 19-2, Leander hills subdivision (short form plat - 3 lots - 5.001 acres - rock cliff drive - no fiscal required - sewage service to be provided by Travis County - no municipal jurisdiction)
>> good morning, carol joseph, t.n.r. Last week you had the public hearing on this item. And there was several issues that arose. One of which being the transportation and we determined that it will only add about 20 trips per day to the -- to that particular road and the developer has given us the five feet of right-of-way that was required if ever we upgrade the road. The density was not an issue for us in that there are no needs, restrictions already in place for us so they can -- to make judgment beyond what the law allows. The water issue we spoke with Texas aqua tex, they did not -- they recognized that they have had issues with water out there. They have since installed a new well and I don't know how soon they are going to have that up and running, but they -- they have been addressing the water issues in the neighborhood. Beyond that, we have no -- we have no issue with the -- with the plat as -- as we received it and they did come in prior to the -- to the interim rules, so they have made all of our requirements -- they have met all of our requirements.
>> so on the record we have aqua Texas certifying to what as far as water availability.
>> let's see.
>> I think what they certified was that they would provide water service to those three lots. Let me verify that. They provide a commitment letter to provide water service to the three lots for a tap fee of $500 to each home prior to the installation of water meters.
>> [multiple voices]
>> that's correct.
>> the issue is whether if you add three more lots, to adversely affect the current homeowners in the subdivision.
>> this was consistent with what was in our regs prior to the interim rules being adopted. Before I say anything else, I want to go on the record of being sure that everyone knows that aqua Texas is different than aqua water, which is the water provider on so common in eastern Travis County. Last week I’m not sure that that distinction was clearly made. But given -- even given that this came in prior to the interim rules, we were still concerned at t.n.r., we called aqua Texas to find out, you know, talk with them given what we had heard about the water situation in Leander hills and that's when we heard that from -- from one of their spokesmen that they are -- they have either dug or in the process of digging a new well out there, because they are aware of the water situation and -- and you know to try to rectify this situation.
>> leffingwell: the time legally -- tom, legally, what we have in writing is one thing. We have them by telephone I guess committing something a lot more specifically. Are we legally authorized to condition approval upon carrying out the telephone message, one, I guess, two, shouldn't we get the telephone message in writing? I mean rather than have this martinning on the agenda, I guess we could condition approval upon them giving us in writing exactly what they said by phone. I mean I think that -- I’m not sure that we would be in a good position if later on, especially this summer when there's a water shortage, you know, these three new homes uphill have water and the people downhill don't, I mean, they have put us on notice that there is a water problem but aqua Texas seems to be saying we are putting in place a remedy to deal with any problem that three new residents, three new homes out there may cause I guess is what they are saying.
>> well, that the -- that the area has -- that the area is experiencing is -- is what I understand.
>> the residents come and they say, we have had water shortages in the past. Those uphill are all right, those downhill are not. And if you put three more homes uphill, that would exacerbate our existing problem. And we have no reason to disbelieve them, right?
>> right.
>> the purpose in contacting aqua Texas was to see if they were aware of that problem and, too, whether they had remedied it. They seem to be saying we are putting new lines in, we think the water situation will improve. You put these three new homes on and are they saying the water situation will not be exacerbated? I don't have that knowledge. I wasn't the one that got to speak with them.
>> my final question, I’ll drop this, legally what can we do? There is a written document that staff seems to think complies with the county requirement. But there's a practical difficulty that I have and that residents have called to my attention an existing water shortage for you know when I guess rains have been short that I didn't know about it. Once they called it to our attention, don't we have a higher responsibility to at least try to address that before taking action, especially action that may make the situation worse. That's -- that's my problem.
>> there are provisions in the county code and I’m talking, the county code before you adopted the interim rules, that what we are under here, there are provisions that deal with the applicant providing assurances about adequate utility service, so the issue here is how you interpret and apply that provision of your regulations. And so if you have issues with that, my suggestion would be take another week on this, so that you can get in writing what -- what we think has been communicated to us over the phone, by the utility company.
>> help me out here, because are we holding this particular thing to a higher standard than we are other subdivisions of similar things? One lot into two lots or three lots? Because I will tell you, there are fire flow issues all over eastern Travis County and severe questions being raised by the emergency service districts out there about whether they have the ability for flow and it's just we are not getting the same kind of thing there in terms of saying give me the letter from the city of Pflugerville saying the flow is better or give me the letter from windemere about whether the flow is there. We have never applied this kind of standard and what is --
>> I don't think anybody has ever come down and told this court, we do not have drinking water where there are dry conditions and we have at least not tried to remedy it. Nobody said that. So fire fighting is one thing.
>> firefighting it one thing.
>> drinking water is another. There are numerous areas in unincorporated areas of Travis County that really have flow issues where if there's a fire, the ability to fight that fire is not the same that it would be in an incorporated area.
>> I absolutely agree with you.
>> but drinking water requires -- in my view we at least awghtd to get aqua Texas on -- ought to get aqua Texas on paper committed to what we think is sufficient based on the circumstances. Now, I’m agreeable to try to avoid mr. Moore another trip down here. If we can get what we think in writing is satisfactory, we simply let him know about phone, we will put this on consent. Seems to me that we are less than due diligent if we do not try to get in writing whatever we can. Where there are drinking water issues in the future, facts come to us like this, I see me giving the same talk, saying the same thing.
>> the other thing that troubles me, when the folks were here last week, the number one issue being brought up was not about water, it wasn't. It was finally at the end in terms of people bringing up the water. It had to do with density, inconsistent with the neighborhood, more traffic. Even if we did nothing, these folks would have the right on a five acre lot to apply for water and build a house. And it leaves one of the -- at least one of the persons last week said just make it two lots rather than 3 because the 2.5 acres is more consistent with the neighborhood than the two lots that are a little more than an acre. So it was really about well we can live with two, we just don't want three. It was only, you know, in terms of trying to something else --
>> transportation. They mentioned some other stuff. But --
>> what everybody brought up as the first things out of their mouth had to do with density, it had to do with transportation, it was only at the end in terms of oh, well we have got water issues. What we have got is folks that have water issues, I don't think that's any different from all sorts of places in western Travis County when the wells go down low there are water issues. The same thing happens out in Pflugerville, which is why they built themselves a 26 million-dollar reservoir so that they would stop dealing with low water wells.
>> I think that if we get certification of the ability of utilities, and that certification is questioned, then I think that we ought to exercise due diligence and at least try to tighten that as much as possible. That's not -- that's not to get the impossible done, but certainly if aqua Texas here is committed to do specific stuff by phone and they plan to stand behind it, then I don't know why in the world we wouldn't take any additional week and get that in writing. The other question is whether this is from the lowest staff person at aqua Texas or somebody in position to make the call. I’m assuming it's somebody in the position to make the call.
>> from what I understand, my planner called around until he found the right person at aqua Texas and this was a representative named jerry strain, you know, they had to find the right person that could discuss this situation with them. So --
>> who signed occupy the letter? Who signed up on the letter? I’m sorry, judge, go ahead. I’m sorry.
>> let me go back. Let's just backtrack here a little bit. In regard to the testimony that the folks did come up here and talk about, let's go a little bit back, back to the rules, a whole bunch of other things. My whole concern at that time was did this come in compliance within -- this is outside, once we find out this was outside of the -- of the authority of the interim rules in which the county is trying to go and making sure that we have new future lues that are going to be located on the subdivision, then of course it has to be compliance with the water supply for that lue's. Now the question came up then and a lot of -- I said that I want to get enough [indiscernible] in the situation, that was of course if this was overriding the -- the interim rules. Now, my question, though, at that time was looking at this, backing up, and saying because I did hear about the water and I wanted to make sure that water is adequate, I don't care where you live in Travis County. If you are going to have a house or something like that, built or something, you should have water, I mean that's basic. Now, I didn't hear that. Now, who -- my question now if you say that you couldn't even get in touch with -- who signed occupy the letter? Who -- who signed up on the letter. Whoever signed up on the letter ought to be able to vouch for --
>> the person that signs the letter is not necessarily the person that knows about new wells in the area.
>> okay. Well even so, my whole point, though, is this -- is this -- it's been a commitment to provide water for these three lots. Then it appears to me that -- that there ought to be some type of deadline, time frame, to when -- when the well will be complete to satisfy the shortfall of existing residents out there that are experiencing water shortages. It seems like everything ought to be coming together instead of just guessing at this stuff. Right now I hear that we are going to commit, Texas aqua saying they are going to commit to -- to supplying the three subdivisions with water. Yet I am also hearing that there is a shortage of water for the existing residents out there. Somewhere there ought to be a match of when the water availability is going to be made ready for existing residents and also those that are coming online. And water shortages are experienced in a lot of places here in Travis County, thank goodness we have as a court have addressed a lot of water, basic shortage needs, we can go from north ridge acres, kennedy ridge, plover place over here on the eastern side of the county. Water shortages, it was things that this court did to bring water to these subdivisions. So it's nothing new. Water is a basic requirement I think as far as quality of life in any setting. I don't see why these -- these -- this shouldn't not be exempt from that. That's what I am trying to get to is just a finish night, something I can -- finite something I can hold on to commitment, to say that the water is going to be subpoena applied after the well -- subpoena applied after the supplied after the well is dug, that's what I am looking for.
>> can you tell us who the water provider is on number 14, south cherry hollow estates, which is just around the corner.
>> I don't have the plat. Wait.
>> we have other plat that we have -- another plat that we have already put on consent, people moving ahead and building a house. Why would we ever let the folks build a house without asking where are you getting the water from. It's right around the corner.
>> in fairness, how many residents came down here and complained about lack of drinking water.
>> I’m saying if there's a lack of drinking water related to this particular water system, why are we not having the same kinds of questions being asked related to anybody else trying to hook up to their water system?
>> it's just like anything else, if you don't come complain to us, we don't know. We wouldn't know about this if residents hadn't come down last week. I was ready to put this on consent because it seemed to be a routine item. It surprised me, we took an hour on it, my note had us taking one minute because it would -- would have been on consent had residents not come down and complained. On the notes that I took, mr. Nance complained about four things, traffic, density, water, sewer, also, we hear about that all the time. We seldom hear of people coming down and verbalizing complaints about lack of drinking water, though.
>> they have the ability to drill a well.
>> we will take a motion in just a minute here.
>> [indiscernible] the two of you --
>> > they are drilling wells, somebody right around the corner in cherry roll le estates are drilling a well.
>> how many people did we get from people out there in the summer they had no rain, there was no drinking water.
>> not to my knowledge. They are combining lots, they are not splitting lots.
>> but the answer is, mob is complaining to us about it.
>> nobody is complaining to us about it. We are assuming it doesn't exist. We have no reason to believe a problem with drinking water exists.
>> that would be more accurate.
>> okay.
>> first of all, what are your thoughts about this issue? You can see that it is of grave concern to a number of us about the water issue. I do agree that -- that -- I wish that the -- that the thing would not have gotten started last week on density. Because what I hear from more areas than not is we don't want more growth. And once I kind of get that -- that in my psyche, it's hard for me to you know get it out because then what happens is everybody starts coming up with every reason about -- about why they don't want something. Do you have grave concerns about if you divide this single five acre into three acre that it's not going to have ample water? Or are you going to tell people that if you are going to buy this, you need to be prepared to dig a well because the water provider out here may not be able to get you ample water?
>> Commissioner Daugherty, I -- I have been out there working in real estate for 12 years. And I have sold two other lots, in -- in Leander hills. I -- I never heard from anybody that I ever sold a lot to or sold a lot for that there was ever a problem with water out there. It was only when we came up here and wanted to divide these -- this five acre tract into three lots, that -- that -- that -- and I certainly agree with -- with Commissioner Sonleitner, that you start grabbing straws. You start trying to find the right button to push to try to persuade the group of Commissioners to not vote for something. I don't believe that -- that -- I live in Jonestown. When wind comes along and blows over the -- over the water intake, we are out of water. When a line breaks, we are out of water. Things like this happen all the time. Granted I believe they may have had some problems occasionally, but if I was hearing -- if I was hearing that this was a constant problem that -- that is never resolved, I would have heard about it. Because I deal with property out there. The letter that we got from andrea dempsey of aqua Texas made a commitment that they would supply water to these three lots.
>> [indiscernible]
>> I didn't get this.
>> read that letter to us.
>> it took a month for us to get this letter.
>>
>> [one moment please for change in captioners]
>> …she confirmed that the well, that they are allowing to be built, drilled on their property, which there is a 25 year lease. I don't know whether you have the letter from mr. Armstrong or not. But from what she said, she thought the well was already drilled and they were in the midst of testing process last week. Now, ms. Armstrong --
>> what he's just saying there, why isn't it simple for us to get that reduced to writing? I’m not trying to figure out a way to deny the application, I’m trying to figure out a way to secure as best we can additional steps by aqua Texas to ensure the availability of water to current customers, and if there are three more if these lots are built out, the three new customers also. I’m trying to figure out a way to get this done where I can sleep each night with a clear conscience. I’m not trying to figure out a way not to --
>> getting a letter out of aqua Texas is -- like I said, my first contact with them, the fax that I sent them was on April 18th or something like that of 2005. The letter that I have is dated may 16th. It took me right at a month to get this commitment letter.
>> once we approve the application, there's no pressure on aqua Texas to do anything. Now, when y'all talk with aqua Texas representative, does that person express shock and surprise that people came out and told us there was a water shortage?
>> I don't think so. Judge, I wasn't the one that spoke with him. I had joe, my senior planner, do the speaking. I’m reading from an e-mail that he sent me. And I can tell you that with the holiday schedule with both -- with both aqua Texas, I had hoped to get a follow-up from this e-mail that had some of the information like when will it be complete, is it complete and the status, and I don't have that. Certainly we can, you know, try to get that in writing if that's your wish.
>> it's certainly my wish. I only have one vote, though.
>> and dean armstrong is certainly somebody we all know and respect. He's been an emergency services district Commissioner for a long time, although I have to get used to the combined district now on north shores, but believe me, if there were any kind of issues related to fire flow, we would have had a scathing letter from the esd going please do not do this, you are making a bad situation worse and we need to do everything we can to stop this. All we have is a letter from dean armstrong saying it's not an issue for us.
>> can you give us the date of the letter from aqua Texas?
>> may 16th.
>> may what?
>> may 16th, 2005. This was part of my due diligence to get everything ready.
>> I understand.
>> for filing on July 5th.
>> judge, I think if we are gieng to go in and reconsider what we're going to do with tnr with regard to what complies and what doesn't comply, then we need to get on with doing that. But at this stage, I mean, these folks -- this complies with what we have with tnr. And again, I am more concerned about -- if you can stop this kind of thing from happening all over Travis County, it will be the way to stop it because you are not going to have fire flow. And I know that this is more of a drinking water deal. And I am certainly sympathetic to the need of drinking water, but I don't think that if aqua Texas can't perform, then whoever buys these lots are going to have to dig a well. They know they're going to have to have water. And I think that that is the design and that's what most people end up doing, especially in western Travis County. I mean, you just go out and you hear people complain about their water, their wells are going dry, which is the reason we have the battle on our hands as to whether or not you allow lcra or you're supportive of lcra taking surface water to western Travis County, which I happen to be very supportive of that. But from what we have before us, and I have asked tnr twice now, do they comply with the letter of what we have, and the answer is clearly yes, and for that reason -- I don't mind whatever instrument that we need to apply pressure to aqua Texas that will ensure people -- I’m more concerned about the people that are hooked up right now. And whatever it takes, if we need to go to the provider, the water provider and say, you know, we are hearing a lot of complaint out of this and we think that you need to get your house in order and get water to it, but as far as what mr. Moore is here asking for, I don't see a reason why we shouldn't -- for that reason my motion will be to grant the action of allowing this to be taken from one to three lots.
>> second.
>> my only concern would be that we notify the buyers of the lots to get in touch with aqua Texas and make sure that you -- you do your due diligence as well. Is there a way that we can put that on the plat?
>> as late as last week, right after the Commissioners court meeting, within a day I had an offer on one of the lots. Over the weekend I was on the phone in lubbock to the agent saying, you know, you really ought to have your buyer contact aqua Texas and see if they'll supply them water. We haven't responded to that offer yet because we don't have three lots or even one to sell right now. So that's just going to be part of my due diligence to another agent or even a client, if I had one, that I would be telling them, okay, this is something you need to do, go see or contact aqua Texas and see if they're going to have any kind of a problem in supplying you with a water tap.
>> before you spend $500, make sure they can get it to you, otherwise you may need to drill a well.
>> that's what their letter said is they would supply a water tap.
>> let me ask you this then: we are focusing on the provision of sufficient water to three families that may buy these three lots if the requested subdivision is approved. The residents who come in the future may be more concerned about the water than the other residents. So does the law give us authority to consider their complaint? Their complaint was the existing families out there have a water shortage during drought months in the summer. If you grant this, then unless there's provision made for these new families, our situation gets worse. Do you see what I’m saying?
>> the existing permit in your regulations speaks of service to a subdivision being a subdivision that's under consideration. In this case that would be the three lots. The existing provision is is there adequate utility service for these three lots.
>> okay. So aqua Texas' response has been that they'll provide for these three lots. Any more discussion of the motion?
>> let me ask you this, mr. Moore: I want this to be part of the record because I think it's very important what we've discussed here today. And that is to ensure that these persons, even though we don't know who they are that's going to be looking for these lots, in some form of writing are notified as to what this situation is, that aqua Texas has not been -- according to testimony has not been able to provide water to those persons that are hooked up already. In other words, someone should have to know -- there should be some acknowledgment, disclosure I guess is the proper word for it, that there is a problem in this area. Somewhere along the lines someone has to know that. Are you the person to do that or is somebody else going to do that?
>> as long as I have these listings, then it will be my responsibility to advise potential clients or customers or buyers or other agents that there has been some discussion previously about aqua Texas' ability to supply water during times of severe drought. And I would probably continue to tell people that. Now, once -- if I do not sell these lots and the sellers become dissatisfied with my services, then they may have somebody else market these lots. I don't think that's going to be the case, but I can't -- I can't ensure what somebody else might do. But my mode of operation would be to advise people --
>> I’m talking about as far as your mode of operation, from your mode of operation, disclosure to the problem.
>> yes, sir, there would be. Because of the -- because of the concerns of the Commissioners court and also just to let them know that this is something they need to check out. If they get a commitment from aqua Texas for a water tap, then to me aqua Texas is saying yes, we can supply you with the water. If they deny them a tap, which their letter made no reference to that circumstance, then obviously they probably wouldn't buy the lot unless they contemplated either doing a rainwater collection system or a well.
>> Gerald, would you accept that as a friendly? Disclosure?
>> Commissioner, I am certainly in favor of putting something like that on the plat notes in the event that mr. Moore -- because mr. Moore, I take him for his word that he is going to say here is an issue. I would like for people to understand that you may have an issue with the water. I think that that is right to alert somebody to the fact that you may have issues. But no, if that's what you're asking is putting something like that in the plat notes?
>> no, I was asking for what his mode of operation was as far as disclosure of the water situation to potential buyers?
>> as I said, I would take him for his word, but unfortunately I know in real estate one person sells something, all of a sudden somebody decides they want to do something, mr. Moore is out of the picture and all of a sudden people go, I didn't know about that. But if it on the plat notes --
>> and it sounds like that ought to be something that ought to be a plat note on every single thing that basically says that a service commitment for water is not a guarantee about quality, quantity, service interruptions and they need to do the appropriate research with the water supplier, in the same way that when you see a barricade at the end of a subdivision, you should make zero assumptions that the road is not at some point going to push through. There is a certain amount of due diligence that is the buyer's responsibility here.
>> is there objection to a plat note indication suggesting that type of disclosure?
>> it depends on whether I would have to go back and have the entire plat reproduced again.
>> no. It could be put on with a sharpie.
>> I have no problem with that.
>> I think that kind of gets us all comfortable and gets you comfortable, mr. Moore.
>> it's got a note on here already that the water will be supplied by aqua Texas.
>> and staff, that could be taken care of --
>> the thing about it is a plat note is forever. Next year things may change.
>> a plat note like this would pretty much be like for buyer beware, just consumer protection.
>> service delivery need to be referred to that particular provider.
>> then if somebody buys the piece of property, they knowingly are buying it with the notion that there could be an issue with it. But I’m comfortable with that. I’m also trying to get you loose so that you get out here and sell the property.
>> I don't have a problem with the note that is a general making aware. A plat note that goes into minute detail about a subject that we may not know for sure whether that is a problem or not --
>> what language is proposed?
>> how about a service commitment for water is not a guarantee that water will be available in drought conditions. Please contact water service provider.
>> that works.
>> how about that, tom?
>> I’m not the one making the motion. I have no objections to that language. The question is is that what y'all have in mind?
>> I would accept that. I would certainly accept that language.
>> accept that as a friendly.
>> and does the court recommend that we put this on all plats?
>> that is not posted today.
>> would you like that posted?
>> I wouldn't.
>> I know we'll be looking to the permanent rules and that would be a good subject for discussion when we get to the permit rules.
>> so the motion is to approve the application with the plat notes. Read that again for us.
>> a service commitment for water is not a guarantee that water will be available in drought conditions. Please contact water service provider for information.
>> works for me.
>> I would leave out the please. [ laughter ]
>> see how reasonable we are?
>> thank you.
>> any more discussion of the motion? All in favor? That passes by unanimous vote.
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Last Modified:
Wednesday, December 28, 2005 8:56 AM