Travis County Commissioners Court
June 7, 2005
Item 14
Number 14 is to receive update from Texas commission on jail standards regarding Travis County jail facilities. Morning.
>> morning. Mike trimable, we have with us today brandon wood who is with the Texas jail standards. Especially consideration some of the cent steps we've taken, the jail operation study, and some of our current pre-planning efforts, so turn it over to mr. Wood.
>> thank you.
>> well, mr. Wood, we appreciate you joining us today.
>> thank you. Judge, Commissioners, I appreciate the opportunity to add you this morning. I知 primarily here to serve as a resource for any questions that you might have. One of the main items that mr. Trimble has asked me to address is what is currently in effect. At one point in time Travis County had 790 various burngs in addition to originally designed and approved bunks. These were initially granted back in 1992 with additional bunks being placed on the books in 1997. Those variance bunks were reviewed an approved on the a yearly basis from '99 to 2001. And in 2002 they were modified. Reason for the modification consisted of many things. One of the first things that came off the bookes was the central boching was taken off line and moved into the new criminal justice center across the street and that removed 51 of the variance bunk, the variances cover such things as square footage, number of lavatories an shower, single occupancy cells because the jail system is required to have a certain number of single occupancy cells in order to provide appropriate segregation and a dormitory percentage. Over the years these items have been looked at and as long as the county has been operating a safe and security facility, it has been the general consensus of the commission to continue to extend these various bunks as long as the county does exhibit a need for these. When they originally granted in the early 90s, it was hoped that the variance bunks would not be around for a very long period of time. They were initially granted to assist the counties in getting through the backup that the Texas department of criminal justice was experiencing in the early 90s. Since that time, there was a group of variances called the emergency bed variances that were granted and Travis County was part of that block. Approximately half of the counties involving in block have removed the variances and approximately 3 more are in the process of building new facilities to address those variance bunks and at that time their variance bunks also also come off the books. I would like to say that Travis County has been somewhat progressive in comparison to other counties in addressing this issue and the recent nic jail analysis study that was conducted was hopefully informative for Travis County and also I did not contribute a major part to it, but I was able to sit in on some of the meetings and they did come by and question us and the results were very interesting as far as we were concerned and we hoped that Travis County will take those interest account and act accordingly and that it will help in planning your future criminal justice needs. One of the things that has been brought up is the del valle complex and as you know it exists of multiple buildings and as you know that presents several issues and several challenges and I would like to take this time to recognize major belagia and his staff to be able to manage that complex efficiently or as efficiently as possible, coming from the physical plant construction side of things, I recognize the fact that if you have close to 23 individual generators that you have to keep online, operational at all times is quite an undertaking, for them to be able to accomplish that one thing speaks volumes. Another thing that has to be addressed whenever you do talk about del valle, they are separate building, the staffing intensity of that complex is probably greater than most of the other counties experience for the same number of inmate; that is to say are required to house. So del valle does present quite a challenge, anything that you may be able to do to alleviate any of the problems that could crop up in the future in regards to staffing or variance bunks would be received as a progressive step forward and we would like to encourage you to take anything and all of those items into account. At this time, I can answer any questions that you might possibly have regarding the variance bunks. I cannot speak for the actions that the board will be taking in the future, but I can tell you the general consensus of our axes over the past couple of years.
>> could you be a little clearerment when you say that Travis County is more progressive in handling the backlogs or the variance beds than other counties, what do you mean specifically?
>> by that I mean that they are actually taking these into account and are not relying on them to be there forever and that you will be addressing them in sort of a building program or at least taking a look at them. Some counties fall into a trap of thinking that once the variance beds are there, they're there forever and they don't ever go away. The variance beds can be placed in jeopardy by a number of things, whether they be the fact that you do need additional space and build a new facility. At that point in time, the board will request that the county build additional beds in order to take any variance bunks off line, because these variance bunks do not meet minimum standards, they're there on a temporary type basis, Travis County from what i've seen of recent, has taken that into account and trying to address that problem. Other counties have not done that and they fall into the trap of only building a number of beds that will help them get through a short-term and they don't take that into account, but with Travis County it seems that y'all are looking out into the future and trying to address those needs and not be caught in that trap.
>> so that is an expectation that you have of counties that have variance beds?
>> yes, ma'am, that is correct. The fact that these bunks present a hardship on the actual physical plant is something that has to be taken into account. These facilities are in operation 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, unlike a municipal type building that only sees traffic from approximately 7 o'clock to 6 o'clock in the evenings, closed on the weekend, not to mention the people incars rated there are not the easiest on the equipment, the staff and the milding itself, they wear out over time, whenever you overstaff -- I知 sorry, whenever you overpopulate a building more than it was originally designed for, it takes its toll on that building.
>> so as long as we don't replace those variance beds, we are basically operating a building that is not up to par?
>> yes, ma'am, it is -- it is being operated with a variance and that means that it's being operated basically not in strict compliance and it happens to be looked at in somewhat of a different light and different things have to be taken into account.
>> I think one of the big questions that not only I have but many members of our citizens bond committee have and they are -- some of them are here in our audience today is this: we've got three different kinds of beds that we're looking at. We have the variance beds. We have what i'll call replacement beds that talks about those campus small little tent buildings that were never intended to be anything but a tent but they're in use, and then what I would call expansion beds, beds that we know because of population, et cetera, are going to be needs in terms of extra capacity beyond today. Variance, replacement, expansion. If we have to make some tough choices simply because this stuff is very expensive to replace capital costs, how would jail standards rank? Which category is the most important?
>> that's a very good question, a very difficult question.
>> thank you.
>> for me to be able to answer. You are correct. Jail costs are one of the largest ticket items that a county will face, whether it be one of the smaller counties out in west Texas or one of the metropolitan counties, bed costs can average anywhere from 20 to $56,000 depending on what size of facility and what type of bed that you decide to replace that with. The first thing that we will always look at is life safety of that bed that you're trying to replace. And that means that in a building if any possible life safety violation could occur due to that variance bed being in place, that would be the one that we would want to address first and foremost. Now, that means several different things, and one of the primary things that we would be looking at is staff available, and one of the things that probably needs to be taken into account is whenever you look at all of these three types of beds that you have mentioned is what is going to be the most staffing efficient, because the primary thing that you have to have is staff observing those inmates, and if you can save some money over the long-term by incorporating a little bit different design, or whatever the case may be, in order to provide that staffing, to provide that life safety, those would be the beds we would want to address first an foremost. We would like to think that a county has not gotten so far behind the curve that even if they were to build or double their capacity they would still need the variance beds in place, but that could very well happen, depending on the time frames that you deal with. If the county -- we would not stop a county from building a minimum number of beds. We do not have that authority because you have to be bringing a certain number online to meet the capacities that you have right now. However, that would not keep you from falling into a status of noncompliance and as Travis County has done in the past, fallen into a status of noncompliance can in a certain amount of time cause a remedial order to be place and that can cause court action and I don't want to be in court with Travis County, that's not what we're there for, we're there to assist the county, so first and foremost we want to troy to address the variance beds. Second is replacement of any bed that you may possibly need to do for warn out or overuse and then third would be the expansion as far as we're concerned. Different factors come into play and we'll take all of those into account and we'll continue to work with Travis County as best we can if you do undertake a different program.
>> let me try the question a different way. If we went ahead with your ranking and we basically have x amount of money, we could talk about the total replacement of half of the beds that we've got at Travis County and we don't get one more net bed and that may help a little bit on the staffing with major belagia that we have staffing that is scattered amongst tend buildings that goes down to maybe one or two men and women, but that doesn't get us anymore net beds and right now with all the incredible efforts of our judges and everybody else in the criminal justice system, where every time we have taken major steps to jail reduction to bring it back down, it is creeping back up, and I知 just -- I知 struggling and I know many of our citizens bond committee members are struggling as well with the idea that we don't get any net beds with the strategy that you talked about there, but we definitely want to stay in on the good side related to jail standards, and it just seems if we've got permission and have gotten permission for 13 years to use variance beds in a judicious, appropriate, safe way, it just seems like we might put a higher priority on getting some expansion beds and the replacement beds as being the two most important things because we will have more beds within the system and more flexibility for the major and certainly the staffing efficiencies and the replacement beds we get to them when we can get to them except for the ones that you mentioned there that if a particular bed in a particular building creates a life safety situation, I agree with you there, those are ones that ought to be off line now, but I知 just -- I知 just -- I知 still struggling with what you just said there, that the variance beds would be number one and that doesn't give us any net beds and we've got a situation beyond that of potentially having to invest $100 million in no net new beds, and shipping folks out to other counties at a million two for every one hundred for a solid year and at some point, how do we afford all of this stuff? And we're still trying to be very good planners and try to, you know, be good stewards of the taxpayer's dollars.
>> yes, ma'am.
>> help.
>> it has been our experience that if we do not have the county's address, the variance beds, whenever they undertake a building program, it will never go away, and I understand your point of view. Hey, we've used them for x number of years. We haven't had a problem.
>>
>> (one moment, please, for change in captioners...)
>>
>> ... But the number of inmates that we're experiencing, except for about three counties in the state, they will continue to rise.
>> just a couple more questions. When you say that we need to do something related to variance [inaudible] works the jail standards folks consider it to be forward progress if rather than zeroing out the variance beds that we make some appreciable progress of bringing those numbers down?
>> yes, ma'am. And Travis County has done that. At one point in time, when they were initially granted, I believe you had 790, and you're down to approximately 532. Is that correct? 570. I知 sorry. That fact is not lost on our board and we'll continue to work with Travis County as best as we can and that is noted in any of the discussions that we have with our board members when they did ask for information.
>> the final question is this: when we were having discussions at the state legislature and revenue caps and what counties need to do, have to do, weaned up doing, when we were making comments to the legislature, legislative panels about how expensive some of this stuff is, we were told that, well, Travis County is volunteering to give back its variance beds; you don't have to do any of this. And there seems to be some interesting use of language because if I知 being told that I知 volunteering to give back variance beds, but it's with the threat of a remedial action, that's not volunteering. And so I just want to get really clear here and I think that would be helpful for our citizens committee as well, what truly is, you need to do this because you are under the threat of a remedial action and getting back on the dark side of the force related to jail standards, and what is, well, cooperative, collaborative and you need to move in this direction because it's the right thing to do. Because those are two very different situations, and our bond committee needs to have clarity as to what is the threat of a remedial action and what if we just like to see good progress and we will respect good progress being made.
>> yes, ma'am. And you are absolutely correct. The fact that Travis County has made unbelievable progress in the past five years cannot be denied by anybody that has witnessed what has gone on with the Travis County criminal justice system as far as detention facilities and the fact it is a criminal justice system. It doesn't just end with the jail, it's the courts, it's everybody here that funds these jails. And to say that volunteer by force, that's not volunteer at all.
>> thank you.
>> Travis County made the commitment to get into compliance and remain in come iance. I don't want to put a date on it because I like to think Travis County has always had that, but the concerted effort began, and lowered the inmate population, got the staffing levels correct by the hiring that was appropriated by the court. It took a very concerted team effort to accomplish this. And in that process, the inmate population was able to drop down. And Travis County did work with the commission and they did come in and say we no longer have use, need for the use of these number of beds, and we were like that is great. And that assisted whenever we were going through the process and the remedial order had been lifted, and through all of this we hope that Travis County was operating in a more efficient and streamlined system and we like to think that was part of the reason. I don't think that they were -- Travis County was ever threatened through the action of the remedial order by removal of the variance bonds if the county was operating an unsafe, unsecure facility, those variances would be in jeopardy. Our primary concern wag get Travis County into compliance. And through the work of the sheriff's department and the jail administration and the court, they were able to take a look at it and say we're under capacity this much. We do not have a need for these beds. That was recognized as being a very, very good omen from Travis County as far as our board was concerned. They took that into consideration and our board was I知 not going to say ecstatic, but that was one of the happiest times they were able to report they were in compliance, had been certified because it was the first time in years it had occurred. And they took all of that into account. I don't think any of the variance bunks were threatened to be removed by the remedial order but could be a possibility if it is unsafe and unsecure.
>> thank you.
>> anything else from the court? Yes, sir.
>> judge, I just have one question, and that is the amount of money that [inaudible] that have come into compliance, and I think you just mentioned harris county and any building program and where they end up removing variance beds, the whole system as far as what they have dealt with in this particular county and I guess there may be other counties that may have done the same, similar thing. But does -- is there any cost amount assessed to that type of compliance, move to have these particular variance beds removed, harris county, any other county, have there been any costs fixed in with that type of situation?
>> as far as an actual cost of variance bunk, I could not give you a price tag. It's probably going to basically be the cost of the middle bunk that you install and the additional staff that you hire in order to remain in compliance so they would probably be some of the cheapest bunks as far as physical installation that you could find. The harris county, the 1200 baker street facility, that was 4200 beds, and I believe that once they finalized the price of it, due to the economies of scale, I think that the cost per bed was approximately $18,000.
>> 18?
>> $18,000 per bed.
>> per bed.
>> yes, sir. Now, as -- taking into account the bunks, I知 not sure they did a cost analysis on a bed per bed replacement of that. The facility that they had taken off line whenever they opened up the 1200 baker street, that one was built in the early '80s and I do not have a cost of that facility nor do I know how much it cost them to install those additional bunks.
>> okay, that's my -- I just wanted to get some numbers out here in my head to kind of see where we are and if whatever comes to pass and we have to deal with things, at least we'll have some kind of numbers or some type of formula to get to that end product.
>> and at any point in time you would like to have any of the numbers on current projects that are going on, call the facilities, you are more than welcome to contact the office and we can provide you with cost of facilities that are currently going up in Texas. Do keep in mind, though, that we have some facilities that are 48 beds. The cost of that is going to be dramatically different than a 1200 or 2400. Just --
>> it will be good to have that information if possible. If we could get that information, it would be great to have so at least we have things to start looking at it if whatever ends up in this whole process. Please get that for us.
>> Commissioner Gomez.
>> I had an additional clarification that I needed for my own comfort level. So by definition, variance beds are temporary. In your -- with your work. By definition, variance beds are temporary.
>> the way that they have been looked at is that the variance is to assist the county, get them over a hump, if you will. They were never intended to be a permanent solution. It is there to assist the county. It's one of the things we like to think that we can do whenever we even count anterior problem with the county, we can say, okay, let's work through this. What is the possible solution, and this is what we can offer at this time. Any time that they become permanent, we think that that impacts the entire facility that they happen to be placed in because these facilities are designed by architects that take into account the population of the building, the flow patterns, the traffic, the amount of wear and tear, the hvac systems are designed for x number of people. Whenever we exceed that capacity that was designed by that architect, those mechanical engineers, those structural engineers, god help us, then we are taxing and we are stressing that facility to the point that it should only be a short-term solution.
>> okay. Thank you.
>> yes, ma'am.
>> Commissioner Daugherty.
>> mr. Wood, did you say that you -- that the range that you use is a 20 to $56,000 bed range; that what you said earlier?
>> that is a cost that it can depend on size of facility, of course the economies of scale. It just depends. It is hard to peg a number, especially in the past couple of years we've had difficulty doing that due to the fact of the unbelievable rise in the cost of steel, concrete, and actually location of where some of these facilities are being built. But what we've done is every time we finish a project, when the price -- excuse me, when the price is finalized, we do divide that price by the number of beds they did bring online. That gives us I知 not going to say a dead accurate number, but it gives us a number we can give to anybody that is in planning to say, okay, this is what you need to be looking at for a 48 to 96-bed facility, you can probably count on 45 to $50,000, possibly even $56,000 per bed. Whenever you start breaking the 144, 192, 250-bed mark, the price starts going down. All that is going to be dependent on the type of beds that you build. Whenever you get into a little bit larger facility, you are able to start constructing dorm taers which are invariably cheaper. So it's all dependent on the type of facility that you bring on lyon.
>> but the range is -- is there a figure that's being used with our bond committee? I mean because i've heard that there is a figure being used, and do I -- am I hearing a larger figure than that?
>> you have been, Commissioner. There are basically two numbers that have been put in front of the bond committee. One is the cost estimate that was done in the jail operation study when they came up with the c-2 concept, which is the concept when we talk about the three categories of beds. That cost was $59,600 per bed and that's for 1688 beds. A preliminary cost estimate was done by facilities management, again based on the mix of beds and just wanted to note we do have more medium to maximum custody beds than other counties may have because that's where our population is headed. But those costs I think were more around 70,000, 72,000 per bed. And those are costs -- this is something I have mentioned to the bond committee, preliminary cost estimates. We just started the jail pre-planning with h.o.k. And we have told the bond committee that we hope to have better, more detailed cost analysis for them by mid-july. And we'll present those -- that information to them and we are hopeful we'll have something more specific to our area, our needs and what costs look like right now.
>> it's like there has just got to be a way that we can -- I apologize.
>> Commissioner Daugherty, are you done?
>> I think that answered the question. I mean because I had heard that it was considerably higher than that, and I知 a little concerned. If we're at 72,000, I mean we've got to sharpen a pencil and there ought to be an explanation.
>> I just have one brief comment, judge. I知 the one that was at the legislature representing Travis County, and sort of being beaten up by the fact that counties appeared to be increasing property taxes and the state legislature really was opposed to any increase in property tax. And I think this is a really good example of what counties state. We have a state organization that is doing their job. They are recommend whag they think is best. We have a Commissioners court that is listening to that, wanting to be in compliance and do what's right. The bottom line is that is not free. It is tens of millions of dollars, and we only have one funding source for that and that's the property tax. So when we have standards that we need to meet from the state, which we have no objection to, the reality is it's not a voluntary thing on your part to go out and increase property taxes. But that is what the result is. It costs property taxes to repay debts to build those beds and those beds need to be operated and that's in the general fund. 100% debt service is paid for by property taxes. And between 86 and 89% is funded by the property tax because that's all counties have from the state of Texas to pay for. That I just want to point that out because we've been having a huge pressure on the property tax, and these are the kind of things that I tried to bring forward of why property taxes are going up. So I just wanted to point that out because it's not a bad thing or an evil thing, but it's a fact of life. If we have to do this, it's going to cost more money and that money is going to come from the property tax.
>> and it's a core service.
>> it's a core service of Travis County, absolutely.
>> any questions from any members of the advisory committee? Questions or comments? Mr. Wood, any closing comments today?
>> again, i'd like to thank you for this opportunity to address any issues or concerns that you might have. We're always available. Any of you anthony contact our office. You have a good situation where everything is funneled through mr. Trumble. I just wanted to make you aware we're available at any point if time.
>> we appreciate your willingness to come down. Thank you very much.
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Last Modified:
Wednesday, June 8, 2005 7:12 AM