Travis County Commissioners Court
October 26, 2004
Item 21
Number 21 is to consider and take appropriate action on the issues regarding
the need and the options for new jail construction at the del valle correctional
complex, including the following: a, a response from the Commissioners court
to the Texas commission on jail standards regarding the plan for elimination
of state approved variance beds. 21-b, a strategy for planning and pre-engineering
new jail construction and source of funding. C, whether to appoint a citizens'
advisory committee. D, how to finance the construction project and applicable
legal restrictions, executive session legal advice may be required for d.
And 21-e, a strategy for utilizing new beds to promote efficiency and reduce
operating cost. Morning.
>> morning. With respect to the commission on jail standards,
the court has looked at getting a letter developed to send to the commission
on jail standards talking about some of the progress that has been made as
well as what some of the next steps are that the court can take. And i've
done a draft if you have that in your back jowp, I also have an additional
copy if you don't.
>> you do have an additional copy? I brought down margo's
letter and I didn't bring it down. Sorry. And the sheriff thought that they
were doing their own letter to jail standards talking about the steps that
they were looking at taking with regard to various beds. What I did was included
basically some of the things that court had discussed they would like to see
in the letter, which is some of the progress that has been done, which you'll
see on the first page we talk about some of the steps the jail overcrowding
taskforce had taken. Then we also talk about just kind of expanded on the
jail separations study and some of the work that was done there, operations
study, especially with regards to the physical plant and the facilities in
the del valle complex. Some of the things that were found. And also some of
the next steps that the court is considering with regards to acting out some
-- acting on some of the things that were found in that study as well. Now,
based on the study, you'll notice on the second page, stop me if I知 going
too fast, but I want to point out that on the second page there are a couple
of dates in there. What those dates are based on, there's a paragraph saying
it's anticipated that the predesigned (indiscernible) it will be completed
in 2005. Following this phase it is estimated that the construction of jail
facilities will be completed in 2008. What that was based upon is in the consultant's
assessment, they had based their time line on if the construction -- if the
project basically moving forward basically at the time of the study, which
is this summer, that the total construction project could be finished up by
fj 2007. So moving that out abit, saying it will take additional time to get
things in place, I went ahead and made the estimate that 2008 based on the
consultant's time line that that would be a time line that would be modified
based on the information that they had provided and when we would actually
get started.
>> do you have another copy of your letter?
>> yes.
>> apparently I left my at home last night. It was so warm
and fuzzy I slept with it last night. [ laughter ]
>> michael, have you ever made a presentation to jail standards?
>> no, I haven't.
>> jamie, I guess you have -- david, I mean, I guess you
have.
>> I won't hold it against you.
>> david, have you?
>> oh, sure. What do you think -- I mean, I think the letter,
I mean, is -- I mean, michael, I think it's well written. I think it says
the story about what we're talking about wanting to do. David, do you think
is this a letter that you think that the commission is going to receive favorably
with what you're doing here in wanting a little more time with your variance
beds?
>> yes, sir, I think that this is what they're looking for.
It gives very clear direction where we plan to go and what we plan to do,
and that's what they're looking for. I think it will be received very well.
>> could we have gone from -- give me some history on this
thing, david. In the high 700's to near 800's of variance beds back to coming
down to 572 or whatever, and how long have we had that variance bed situation,
how many years?
>> since about '93, '92, '93? So it's been about 10 or 12
years. And we actually started out with about 1200 beds and slowly worked
our way down to where we are now at 572.
>> so this history -- having witnessed as many times as you've
probably been before them, is that sort of -- that's a decent story, I mean,
if we started with 12 and we've taken it down. I would think that the only
thing that gets people's attention out of this deal is after having watched
everything from rocket docket to everything that we've done that we are seeing
our numbers flip back up. And I would think that the commission would understand
that we are a little bit behind the eight ball to some degree because just
the numbers -- dollars that we're not getting from the state and with them
not being able to get people out as quickly as possible. I mean, I don't want
to -- I知 looking forward to going over there and being part of this presentation,
but i'd like for somebody to tell me you're going over here with a pea shooter
and you need a rifle.
>> I think we're in good shape. They understand the situation
and they understand the dynamics that all the jails are facing with their
different backlog issues. And although each county is different and to a great
degree we're actually the same and we're up against the same type of issues.
They will compare us to other counties, and we are making very good progress,
so they're going to recognize that and they're going to understand that, like
you say, our population has gone up a little bit over last year, but it's
not for lack of every person in Travis County's criminal justice system not
trying to do everything within reason to control that population. So I think
the letter's fine and I think it will be well received.
>> two quick questions. Number one is our consultant told
us that we have a few hundred beds in poor condition, and that they need to
be replaced. Is that of importance to the state jail commission? At this time?
>> well, the jail commission has made recommendations and
we follow through with the recommendations on how to, you know, ensure that
we maintain compliance within jail standards for those buildings. As an example,
we asked for and y'all gave us funds to do dropped ceilings in nine and 10,
which are medium security facilities. In years previous we asked for money
and y'all gave it to us to turn temporary buildings into permanent buildings
by upgrading the life safety equipment and putting generators, emergency generators
on the buildings. So y'all have funded us very, very well to keep those buildings
running. And will continue to do so as long as we need to but I believe the
consultant's point and our point is the buildings have even passed the point
where you shouldn't be spending that kind of money on them, on a building
that was built, literally, some of them 20 years ago as really temporary structures.
So we're spending a lot of money keeping these buildings going. But right
now because of the effort that we have made and because of the money you have
given us, the structures are fine right now. They'll pass.
>> well, the beds that are in poor condition at least at
the present time are not on the state jail commission's radar?
>> well, that's correct.
>> but there's a responsibility for us to at least try to
maintain them in an acceptable condition you think?
>> absolutely. And the number one thing that they look at
is life safety issues. So those are all of the things that we have been correcting
over the last couple of years, and of course, they're very expensive, but
that's -- and understandably that's what they should look at. And that's their
main concern. And I知 not saying that the other issues of sanitation and those
type of issues take a back seat, but life safety absolutely comes first. So
if your building has those, then -- and then you maintain it, you know, in
a clean manner, which we do, they're acceptable.
>> my second question is this: let's say that some Travis
County taxpayers ask the county judge, how serious is the state jail commission
about Travis County returning those state variance beds? And the county judge
would say very serious because two years ago they told us that and the county
sheriff and her staff will confirm that almost at every opportunity they ask
us about them. And most taxpayers, they want to go a step further and ask
about the hard evidence on state insistence on getting variance beds back.
How easy for us to get a letter from the board or the executive director,
mr. Julian, that says basically Travis County, we have reviewed your letter
to us and we accept your strategy, and effective 2008, we want our beds returned.
And the reason I ask the question is it seems to me that for a lot of Travis
County taxpayers, it's one thing if we are suggesting that we need more beds,
it's another thing if the state is serious about getting at least the variance
beds returned. Do you see what I知 saying?
>> yes, sir. It's one thing for the county judge to say I知
pretty good at reading the state jail commission and based on my heed reeding
and what they said, here it is. It's another thing to pull out a letter dated
November 4th or 5th, 2004, and say you can read it yourself.
>> what I知 afraid of --
>> let him answer my question first, if there is an answer.
>> no. I just have a part 2 to your question.
>> I don't know that -- well, i'll answer it based on my
past experience since the jail standard stance on variance beds when I was
a captain. And what I have always found their response to be is we'll do an
annual review and we will look at you every single year, and historically
it was always in December because they've gone back to their quarterly meetings
now to November.
>> well, the county judge really doesn't know whether they
need these beds back or not. In my view the sheriff's department needs to
have something in writing. I mean, wouldn't they be sensitive to that? Say,
well, if that's what he wants, give him this.
>> I don't know, judge. Every time we've talked to them in
the past, it's always we're going to look at it on a yearly basis. Every single
entity that has variance emergency beds has to come to us and talk to us every
year.
>> I was there two yoorz ago when they did that. Two years
ago I was not looking at maybe a substantial issue to construct beds. I知
thinking even on public education, I知 thinking that as to the variance beds
there is much greater pressure than some of the other beds that we really
need and ought to construct. And so I was hoping that it would be simple simple
for us to say we need this if writing if you're really serious about it. If
you're not serious, we'll see you next year.
>> well, we can ask them, judge. The question to me are what
did I really think they were going to do? So I only base it on what i've seen,
and what i've seen is every single year -- they're not going to give you anything
over a year. They're just going to base it on the next year and want to see
what your progress is then for the next year. And so --
>> I think it's a realistic timetable. A year or so to get
the preengineering done and get the money in place, and then basically construction
will take probably at least a couple of years. When you go out to voters and
talk about a substantial amount of money, my guess is somebody will ask, well,
is this timetable strict? Why don't we give ourselves another eight to 10
years? And i'd like to be able to say the truth is the state jail commission
won't give us that much time, that they won't give us that much time and here's
what they told us back in 2004. I'd like something in writing that says --
so that we can share with the public as part of the public education. It is
not like this idea came up yesterday. It was two years ago when they started
talking about wanting their variance beds back and I was over there and heard
that.
>> I was aiming for something a little less -- like don't
ask a question you don't already know the answer to. I had a flashback to
judge dietz's courtroom on the whole school finance issue in terms of you
want to be improving a lot of public education because you know it's the right
thing to do, or do you want to have a gun to your head because the district
judge has said you shall do it by this time certain or all hell will break
loose? And I just -- I知 freaking with the idea this you shall have beds in
place by a date certain as opposed to getting a letter that says super, we
expect to see these timetables met and, oh, by the way, the day you finish
your bed we're taking back the old ones. One is more -- it gets to the same
place, they're going to take away the variance beds, but I just have a real
sensitivity towards even hinting as if we're almost asking for a demand letter
like somehow that's necessary here for us to do our business, but also for
the public to understand that this is serious and we've got to get this done
and I don't want any kind of order from the commission saying shalt. There's
been too much litigation in regards to jails, and I don't want anything that
hints that we're not cooperating and collaborating and moving forward as a
team along with the state of Texas.
>> I think the public is willing to accept reality as much
as the Commissioners court. The reality is that the state wants the variance
beds back. It seems to me if that's true, they ought to see it in a form that
we can show for it rather than tell people. The other thing is I don't know
if the timing is right to go with a 100-million-dollar issue. And in my view
if the state jail commission says we want our variance beds back and they're
serious and there's hard evidence to that, I知 a lot more inclined to consider
co's for those beds otherwise I think we're duty bond to have it in our possession.
John hill's e-mail to me yesterday indicated that if we go out on 100-million-dollar
issue and it's rejected, and then we turn around and try to see all the variance
beds, five percent of the voters can petition for an election on that. Either
way we do have a lot more flexibility the beds, we're looking at 1600. A lot
more flexibility on the thousand than we do on the state variance beds if
the state is serious.
>> I think they're serious.
>> I think they're serious.
>> me too. Moisture we need a history lesson of what happened
last time we were under court order to get rid of the jail and build a constitutional
jail. And if we just need to get those letters, why don't we just get them.
>> look at what they did in san antonio. It's unthinkable
to me that when we asked that they wouldn't give it to us. And I see them
basically elated at the opportunity because it's not like the letter is saying
10 years from now or 10 days. I mean, between 2004 and 2008 is four years
and it was two years ago that they called to our attention, hey, you have
the variance beds at 10 years and at some point we want them back and we want
a plan. Otherwise we wouldn't have given back 150 a year ago, I guess. In
my view if I were a voter and the county issued co's for variance beds, then
I would have -- i'd understand. But on the other thousand beds, and the total
gets up to the 100-million-dollar range, that's a lot of bread. I知 trying
to put together a strategy here that makes sense and at the same time that
I think makes sense to the average voter taxpayer who believes that he or
she is being overtaxed right now.
>> I think it's good to look at the strategy, and let's look
at the answer that we need to that we can -- so that we can move forward with
the strategy. And if it's a letter from them saying they're serious about
the beds, if we need to have that, let's get it, that way we can kind of move
on with the strategy. But I don't want to be under a court order. And I do
think that we need to speed some time educating the public about the need
for a constitutional jail and that we have to have one. It's got to be constitutional.
>> what if there's middle ground here? Michael, you've written
a great letter. Rather than putting something in a piece of paper and saying,
by the way, would you mind giving us a hammer -- it's that that ought to be
something that whomever is part of the contingency going over to speak to
jail standards and saying -- will we get the answer that day, david?
>> four years, yes, ma'am.
>> in terms of somebody, in terms of whomever it is from
the Commissioners court going, saying that we would really appreciate it if
you could put that in writing for us and elaborate a bit on the necessity
and deadlines that you all have in your mind related to the variance beds?
There's a nice way to ask for this and there's one that's inviting trouble.
And I don't want the inviting trouble.
>> what they did in san antonio is they said we want our
variance beds and we want them now. And I知 thinking with the (indiscernible),
etcetera, being what they are, if I were a taxpayer out there, i'd want to
know how much flexibility my Commissioners court have about 575 beds, 1600,
30, $35 million, $100 million. Do you see what I知 saying? And what I had
in mind was picking up the phone and asking terry jillian this is what the
Commissioners court would like to have. What's the best way to get this? Would
it come from you or come from the board? We prefer for it to come from the
board. That will probably have a lot more clout with the average taxpayer
than the executive director. The executive director, jack clump, had a different
perspective on variance beds than terry julian, right? And I don't know whether
it was the board or the executive director, mr. Julian came all of a sudden,
he and the board became a lot more insistent on getting the variance beds
back, statewide, not just Travis County. And there's also a responsibility
of a new executive director or new board members, new majority, and what I知
thinking is that if you you've got your commitment in writing, your plan,
etcetera, they would be a lot more duty bound or likely to follow that plan
than otherwise.
>> i'd rather get the answer that way through maybe a phone
call rather than going before the standards economy and saying what do you
understand about this? And i'd rather pick up the phone and call and ask.
And i'd have them send something in writing if they can, and then that can
be used as an educational tool for the public as to whether we should do or
something. Ot.
>> that's what I have in mind. I think we need to discuss
it more with lawyers in executive session. But I move approval of 21-a. That's
the letter. It makes all the sense. I think it sets dates that we can live
with and a strategy that we've all kind of talked about anyway. Any more discussion
of a?
>> just one little minor. Michael, paragraph 2, shouldn't
it be have rather than has? Because we have county and a taskforce. Thanks.
My mother is always proud when I use my grammar.
>> any other wordsmithing? All in favor? That passes by unanimous
vote. That was 21-a. B is a strategy for planning and pre-engineering and
also source of funding. We talked about possible sources of funding previously.
Can you tell us exactly what it is, you and ms. Rio?
>> possible source of funding that was discussed previously
was existing certificates of obligation. Pbo is currently in the process this
week of working with the auditor's office to see what the actual balances
are going to be. As you recall, what we do now in the last two fiscal year's
it's been, we budget the actual balances. And we're doing that as we speak.
I do not have, however, the final figures. As I said, we're in the process
of doing that and I do not have the final figures. All I have is what was
in the memo dated September 17th that discussed this issue. It was approximately
two existing co's that we've identified, fund 435 and fund 455 that were possible
candidates in a had balances -- in very round numbers, 650,000 and one, round
numbers, about 375,000 that might be eligible for this. And also once I get
the final figures I can get those to you. And once we know exactly what we're
doing as far as if it's going to involve a professional service contract,
for example, with an architect or an engineer, there's some general planning
effort and i'll be able to work with legal and let you know finally if those
funding sources are eligible, and I believe they probably are.
>> we need to get a final answer between now and November
9th? Get with you a small working group -- I think we've landed on exactly
what it is we need in terms of pre-engineering.
>> right.
>> why don't we do that and try to land on this on November
9th, okay? We'll have this one back. Any problem with that? At the same time
do we have a working committee putting together a draft rfs or rfq or one
of the rf's?
>> probably q.
>> I think that's one of the next steps that we're doing.
Now that we've talked about the scope of work and what's involved, that would
be the next phase of this.
>> let's have this back on November 9th also.
>> at least a rough -- whatever you have, rough rough. Rough,
rough draft.
>> you can tell where November 9th will be focused.
>> yeah. I think there was a question on the scope. And just
before we move forward on the rfs development, is on the scope that we've
pulled up in front of you is there were basically a couple of things. There
were a couple of things that we talked about that the team could do versus
actually the consultant having to do that sells. And I think on the scope
of work -- all of that was pretty much included in there, but I think maybe
what we need is also a direction from the court that that scope of work that
we did present was in fact doable.
>> we need the scope of work for the rfs on the agenda for
November 9th?
>> I believe so.
>> we need a little bit more discussion. I recall generally
our discussion, but it would probably help for us to get an outline of the
outline? Or a further review of the document we have before us following discussion.
>> what we can do is finalize that and then from that we
can develop -- the rfs can be developed from that.
>> okay. November 9th. C is whether to appoint a citizens
advisory committee. One of our executive managers, especially the one in charge
of transportation, says the issue of having one committee work on a correctional
facility and -- and speaking of that executive manager -- and transportation
issues like roads. And he thought that somehow or another toll roads may fwk
the focus -- become the focus, and parks. He thought -- what was your thinking,
joe? The projects may get bogged down.
>> I can't imagine toll roads being on there, there's no
money coming from the counties.
>> it was the scope of the bond program, whether it included
just the jail or whether you're going to include county roads, right-of-way
for state projects, parks, open spaces. (indiscernible). And so I guess my
question is whether or not tnr should be preparing for such a process because
it usually takes six months to eight months to get the committee set up to
support that committee, to develop projects before the committee and ultimately
get to an election order, all of which is a lot of work. So I知 looking for
some direction wrar to my work program, whether or not this is going to be
something you're going to want to have happen this year or not.
>> my thoughts are this. Because of all the e-mails and all
the discussion, I think that we ought to concentrate maybe on our local projects
if we do that, local roads, local projects so that the discussion out there
on the election is not totally taken up by what if state projects go toll
road. And that's going to detract totally from this need that we need to address.
The county is the only one that can address the need for more jail cells.
And it seems to me that is our main, you know, reason for existing, I guess,
but then after that the local projects. And I don't want the local projects
to suffer because of other things, but I would really stay away from having
stage projects on there. And then -- and then if people are really concerned
about this being too much taxation, then I think that that gives us an opportunity
to have -- work on local projects, which may not be as a state, but then we
will concentrate on the need for additional jail cells.
>> i'll echo you on that one, especially in 2001 -- well,
'97, 2000 and 2001, what pushed many of our local projects off the ballot
is what we did do in terms of stepping up to the plate in a very big way,
and I知 glad we did, related to sh 130, mopac extension and sh 45 north. But
I haven't heard a peep about any more state right-of-way that's going to be
required out of Travis County, especially since the city of Austin and other
cities have strip annexed down most of our state highways. So you're right,
we need to completely stay out of there, but there are plenty of state --
excuse me, local projects that need our attention on parks, jails and arterial
roadways.
>> on this item do we need a citizen advisory committee?
>> oh yeah, for local projects.
>> all right. One question, do we need a committee on the
-- (indiscernible).
>> do we want an advisory committee to help with the correctional
project plus other matters that may be on a bond referendum? It's really like
two questions. The timing on this is if we keep our word, assuming the strategy
is approved, we would be to voters in the fall of next year.
>> judge. We can have a large committee, and then they can
divide themselves into a semi and address the criminal justice issue, the
others, the committee would address local projects.
>> that's what I would say is how much we want to put on
the advisory committee, their involvement and how much information. Because
we are talking about projects and we are going to look for certain involvement.
But if we have a citizens advisory committee, you may be able to take is that
strategy -- it depends on how many people we're talking about in the subcommittee.
I know folks have more experience than I do, but it just depends on what amount
of work we put on them.
>> the committee we had before in 2001 was each of us got
five appoint tees. And that really did divide up the work and they did divide
their work up in terms of parks, and we had a six or seven items on the ballot
in '97, and jails were on there as well. They passed, as did our tnr projects.
The only thing that did not pass in '97 was one trail that was put out there
by itself. It's lonesome self.
>> we need to let them divide themselves up into subcommittees
because sooner or later they need to come back together to figure out what's
on the toll ballot.
>> so yes?
>> yes.
>> [ inaudible ].
>> judge, on the question of a separate advisory committee
on jails, and I知 not sure necessarily that y'all are moving in that direction,
but we will need to produce for you as well as any citizens advisory committee
debt capacity information.
>> sure.
>> and there is a limited debt capacity and there will be
competition for that debt capacity over multiple years. Not only from roads
and parks and bridges and sidewalks and jails, but also, as you know, there
is discussion afoot for a new courthouse. Indeed, there's planning money that
was appropriated for that. So all three of those areas, the roads, the jails
and the courthouse, will need to be phased in a way that meets appropriate
debt capacity. If there are multiple advisory committees, they will bump into
each other. If there's one with separate subsections, they'll be able to come
together and see the whole picture. That was my comment.
>> they'll all be under one roof instead of in separate silos.
>> I guess I知 hearing, one, an advisory committee that would
assist us with all issues.
>> yes.
>> roads, parks, public county facilities, etcetera.
>> everything.
>> any objection to that? Is there an opposing view? Counter
point?
>> do we have a sense of when we want to get that named by,
judge? Next 30 days or something?
>> November 16th looks like a good day to me. That's three
weeks. How many committee members do we have left?
>> 25.
>> 25?
>> how many working members do we have on that 25-member,
large committee?
>> actually, most of them stayed with it.
>> all five of mine.
>> I would say maybe half a dozen that were in and out.
>> okay.
>> what's the date that we need to have our names by?
>> that would be my suggestion. I guess we need to look at
what did last a time in terms of putting together a description of the projects.
>> you had a charter that you gave to the committees and
what they were charged with doing, a timetable on when they were to deliver
it. We need to talk about staff support, who's going to put together the supporting
clerical support and setting up meetings. It is a lot of work.
>> we could fight over coffee and cookies again.
>> I think I heard mike volunteer to do that. [ laughter
]
>> we need it ready by the ninth.
>> yes.
>> so a full week after that to make the aappointments.
>> i'll work with joe on that. [ laughter ]
>> anything left on c? We'll have the charter as a kind of
a reminder and the exact kinds of people we need on there. Did we indicate
what sort of backgrounds we thought we would need?
>> certainly about debt. I mean, you've got 25, you have
an opportunity really to get a pretty good cross-section of our community.
You don't want everybody to be an engineer. Maybe the charter will guide us
on that.
>> something that really reflects the community.
>> so as a charge, subcommittee or charter, we have joe and
christian? Joe, christian and michael? [ laughter ]
>> just one thought on that charge as well as the membership.
There will be some substantial, I believe, competition. Probably not for final
completion of a project, but competition for the scheduling. Because debt
capacity issues. And as we -- if we looked at this over a five or more year
period, it will be much easier to accomplish everything than if everything
wants it done right in the beginning. So being able to balance out competing
needs between county buildings like courthouses, county facilities like jails,
and transportation-related issues will be, I think, very important to have
an effective citizens advisory committee as opposed to a lot of advocates
simply advocating for their issues.
>> right.
>> judge, i've got a luncheon I need to get to. Are we nearing
an end?
>> I don't want to keep the court beyond 12:00 o'clock. I
know how important lunch is.
>> e is a strategy for utilizing new beds to promote efficient
aand reduce operating costs. It seems to me we need to spend more time discussing
that aspect than we have so far. That was addressed in the report. I don't
know that the Commissioners court landed on some of those recommendations.
If we get beyond the variance beds and look at beds that are in poor condition,
fair, etcetera, and we call the number of programs and services that we have
available, it seems to me that we need to have a discussion of those. So when
is a good time to do that?
>> a good time would be on the ninth when we talk about the
other issues with the funding of the scope of work and those things. Because
I think you're right. Probably the first thing is to -- we talk about the
variance capacity, but the other pieces of it because that's where the trade-offs
are coming in as far as operational efficients that the consultant -- you
can have a consultant's analysis versus doing a certain number of beds, and
we have that information.
>> we'll have it down on the ninth. I think that those of
us who have ideas, we'll get them to y'all before the ninth, let you look
at those. Is that okay on e?
>> yes.
>> and on d, I do think we ought to take that up in executive
session this afternoon, discuss some of the legal ramifications of going for
voter approval, issuance of co's, etcetera. Is there a lunch motion?
>> I move we recess until 1:30.
>> recess until 130. All in favor? That passes by unanimous
vote.
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Last Modified: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 3:27 PM