Travis County Commssioners Court
March 16, 2004
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Item 36
We have several representatives here from the precinct 1 office building, so let's call up item number 36. Consider and take on request to reconsider decision to locate tax assessor, satellite office at precinct 1 jp and constable office building at spring daily and mlk boulevard. I did see roger a new minutes ago. And I imagine he's headed in this direction. There he is. In the backup I provided a letter from judge scott. I guess in terms of background, the court did vote to modify the building out there, following Commissioner Davis's lead at that time off of the affected elected officials seem to be in agreement but as the construction project unfolded other issues surfaced.
>> right.
>> can I turn it over to y'all to tell us what those issues are.
>> thank you, judge, and Commissioner, I'm richard scott, justice of the precinct 1 and to my right this is terry johnson , our office manager.
>> division manager.
>> division manager and to my left is municipal clerk mercer constable precinct 1, recently reelected and to his left roger.
>> thank you.
>> yes, judge, following the construction at precinct 1, we've discovered that the modification itself has caused the lobby area to be reduced from 440 square feet to 250 which has caused us to have to use the area set aside for a conference room for the overflow in the lobby. The new lobby area does not afford for chairs to be placed in the lobby or tables for parties to come there to fill out forms or to pickup material while visiting the court. And we were asking this court to postpone the moving of a satellite tax office there until we can make adequate space to accommodate the persons who visit the court.
>> my memory being refreshed. Didn't you all sign off on the plans and part of the lobby got taken away and was turn into the staff work space for y'all's offices so...
>> beg your pardon?
>> part of the space for the waiting room was -- a wall was being moved to give more office space to y'all.
>> absolutely.
>> and so you all said we will take away space from the lobby so that we can have more office space, and y'all signed off on that.
>> we signed off on whatever was presented to us because we wanted space and we were happy to get our staff in an area from being in the conference room, hall way, and jury room, with the reduction in that space, did not tell us that we would not be able to accommodate the public who came there to fill out forms, we not aware of that.
>> you signed off on a wall moving that specifically cut down the size of the lobby so that y'all could get more space in your office, not that ms. Wells could get more space, but it was for this area over here off the waiting room was turned into your space, not -- you went into it with eyes wide open in terms of how do we get more space? Well, we sign off.
>> ...
>> we signed off on another space where it did not do that. Do you want to see that one?
>> I know what was approved by the court.
>> okay. Thank you.
>> I think it would help us to hear about some of the practical problems that this poses for you, not that you don't like the configuration, but it -- it poses unexpected problems was hoit was described to me.
>> right. Approximate absolutely.
>> when two or more persons are at our court at the window, it blocks the entrance into the court, into the office of the justice court, the constable's office and into the courtroom. There's not enough space now to even have people standing in the lobby area without blocking the entrance to a doorway. Like I said, there is no space for the tables that used to be available for customers to fill out the paperwork and display the resource material. And we are now using the conference room for the overflow of the lobby area, which then eliminates the space for the conferences for lawyers and their clients, witness under the rule and negotiation with the prosecutors, we don't have those kind of spaces anymore. It also creates kind of a, we think, a fire hazard with -- when -- when we are at our peak hour, when we're full of persons in the court, in the lobby waiting to have service. Also violates some federal regulations if we attempt to put chairs in the lobby. We've been told by facilities that ada, there's a violation for that.
>> I'm getting some different -- I'm getting some different analysis, here, judge, no disrespect to you, but when we first visited this thing, we wrestled and tossed it around as much as we possibly could to come up with a final agreement which everybody was basically satisfied with, including you and constable mercer, in fact I like to congratulate you, constable mercy. In your reelection. But the -- the deal I'm trying to get back to you is that y'all basically agreed and you called my office several times and we finally, because at one time you guys looked at proposing the tax office being out of your particular shop, extended out, there would have to be a canopy where they would have to be in the weather. The court decided, no, this should be a enclosed area and it should be in the square footage that has been designated as it has now, 200 square foot area for the tax assessor's office to operate business. Now, that was something that again I don't want to revisit this, but we -- i've had a meeting out there with you and of course I had a chance to look at and revisit this again, but I got signed off signatures from you and also constable mercer saying, yes, this is what we want, we don't mind you reducing this particular space, but now I need to ask staff some specific questions, if you don't mind, sir.
>> roger, can you possibly tell me the Texas department of license and regulatory agency, which really looks at our a.d.a. Compliance and things of that nature, how are they with this particular proposal at this time?
>> when we design a project and we send it for their review and comment about as far as space is concerned, we get the review -- that plan was reviewed by the tdlr and there was no violation cited that according to the space provided. Therefore, and I don't see any violation right now from a.d.a. To tdlr as the plan was designed and was approved. Now, after we did the construction, now, if the user would like to add a fixed object, fixed shelfing in the waiting area, then it will be noncomient with tdlr, so that is the issue that the judge was mentioning the facility for a.d.a. I would like to clarify that. If you have fixed objects on the wall, then you don't have enough room and it will be in con compliance with tdlr -- noncompliance with tdlr. I just may say when we designed this project, we don't just design it where everybody agreed to it early on, and as a matter of fact we had numerous meetings, you know w. The user departments and to get this project going and that was with the constable and with the jp also, with the effects of this and the rest of the users, and based on the 440 square feet lobby space, the work space in a courtroom, and planning meetings we had notes and the department approved using this additional space in the lobby for other area. Now we can expand, if you wish, to lobby space and to the vestibule as needed. That's the area between the two storefront, I call them, on this I just gave you right now. This is the area right here we can add additional space for the waiting area. It's very important to mention that the lobby space for the tax office is designed to be inside the allocated space. The tax office and waiting space are inside the room set aside for them. As you look at the plan, you know, it's been designed that everybody coming to pay any taxes in the tax office, they don't go into the area of the jp and the constable, that was as designed on the plan. The -- also we did include the addition of another clerk window to help with the increase in customers. We did that during construction. Now the direction of the design came directly from the user approved. We did not just go design and say here it is, we had meeting again to say that it's been designed. We would like the department to tell us what they need and we prepare the requests into the plan. No project -- no project moved forward without the user group and then the Commissioner's court approved. I followed the plan according to the direction of the court and the user at that time.
>> would it be well, with the 250 square foot that is now exists in the lobby area since the renovation has taken place and if the vestibule area is addressed which would give 125 additional square foot to the 250 square foot, it almost would meet the total demand -- it appears that it would almost meet the total demand of the original square footage that was placed from beginning with the additional 125 square feet also, if it's added to the 250 square foot lobby area, would that also fall within compliance to the Texas department of license and regulatory folks which oversee the a.d.a. Compliance and things of that nature, would it cause any hardship by adding the 125 square foot to the lobby area.
>> sure. Here it is, if you add the 125 square foot additional to the existing lobby, that will be about 375 square feet. Originally it was 440. So the difference is only 56 square feet. I think regarding the a.d.a. Noncompliance, I think we can, as we see it right now, it will work, we put in little shelf, you know, on the area right now on the vestibule area, and we'll be in compliance.
>> there will be a shortage of 65 square foot.
>> there's a shortage of 65... Injury from the original lobby area?
>> all -- all -- my -- my information to y'all today just we did not go above and beyond, you know what was approved by the plan.
>> clear -- clear we did approve a specific design and that's what's been built out there.
>> exactly.
>> what they're saying is that factually...
>> it doesn't work.
>> ... It's a bad situation. When I go out there there are people standing all over the parking lot, the judge is saying on trial days you've got parties, you've got witnesses, you've got lawyers. You don't have any place inside to wait. So tris are going on in the courtroom, you got a small lobby area, then a little space next to that, two conference rooms are used by lawyers and witnesses, et cetera, for conferencing, then you still got people outside. And it's a bad situation now before the tax assessor gets there. It's a small tax office, and so I guess at some point the question is if you agree to a certain design, whether the Commissioner's court interprets that to mean your agreement in blood, I mean my thinking was the parties collaborate and tried to come up with something that was working f in fact it's causing more problems than what we saw, what remedial actions do we take, if any, today or later. At some point we have to wonder how important is this small tax office anyway? But in terms of the jp and the constable, if it's a bad situation already, it can only get worse if the tax assessor uses what's really -- what they have been using as a conference room. I mean I guess that really is for us to decide, right? So now in my experience here, normally we would defer to the elected officials on something like this. Hopefully up front, but if not up front then certainly when it's called to ourt a tension. The tax assessor some time within the next few minutes needs to tell us how important this is to her as the tax off. The reason I thought this was a good idea is that we seem to be putting satellite offices in other newly constructed buildings, and my thinking was if the square foot in the other building may impair precinct 1. I never thought we would impose it regardless of the circumstances. It does seem to me if it's a bad situation now, I mean do we make it worse by using it as a small tax office? And if we make it worse, isn't this the time to back off? Now, the reason I put it on the agenda kind of early, too, is that the office has been built and the furniture either has been ordered or will be ordered so...
>> will be ordered.
>> before you go there, though, before do you to the tax assessor, let me say this, the community wants this tax office located there, they're taxpayers just like everybody else here.
>> but the same community standing in the parking lot conducting business...
>> I know. We're going to resolve the issue. But I'm letting you know the senior citizens in that area and those coming in east and areas farther out, the growth and potential like that, i've heard really strong sentiment from the senior citizens in that area and of course I'm going to echo their concerns and we're not here to get into a big argument.
>> we are concerned about...
>> well.
>> I am.
>> how important is this as a tax office?
>> [inaudible]
>> let me regard a question. Talk to us about the tax office.
>> ... Try and get the tax office service in the neighborhood; however, once the entire tax office moved to precinct 1 airport boulevard, we're getting lots and lots of taxpayers coming in to that location because there's a place to park, there's plenty of space for them, they can get in and get their business done and get out. It may be that rather than this tiny little space where if you're in a wheelchair at the m lk and springdale site and you come in there, you can't turn around, it's that tiny. Very small. And the rest of us are four miles up the road at airport boulevard. I would think that precinct 1 is well-served by the airport location, if they're not, then we do need to...
>> here is write I'm confused. You go back and forth between these two documents. This is not the matter we chopped a little bit off the lobby, there railroad tremendous increases added in terms of working space for the j.p. And for the constable, including adding almost 200-some odd square feet to the courtroom, which was appropriate, because that courtroom was teenincy. But there was extra space added on here for working space for the justice of the peace. It's quite easy to take and move it and say, fine, you don't get as much working space because you signed off on wanted to have working space for you rather than space out in the lobby approximate for everybody else. I think ms. Spears here is being used as a punching bag, well, there's more space, let's go off her space, as opposed to I'm not hearing anybody say well, let me rethink what I needed for my office. That's not the first place we're looking and there is clearly space here that was added on to working space to the j.p. That can easily be recapture and be put back into the lobby. Easily.
>> Commissioner...
>> you have got tons of new space, this was not just take the existing building and reconfigure it up and one of the conference rooms became bigger. I'm just perplexed as to why people sign off on something and then all of a sudden say oh, i've got all of this extra space, but it's still not enough, but rather than take a look at what my space is, I will take it away from somebody else.
>> Commissioner, we request to enlarge this building back in 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, and finally it was accepted in 2004 for some reason, for 170-some thousand dollars. That is for the office. More money was added by persons or land. We did not ask for a tax office there when we first started asking to enlarge the building for the staff. Yes, we did get footage, we did sign off. I had no idea about the size of the lobby, what it would do until it was completed. A.d.a. Rules were brought up to us by if (t) facilities people saying you can't put this here, you can't put that there, that's where we got that information from. I know it's a fire hazard by people standing in the hall way if something happened with two or three people at the window. It won't work. We greed to it. Yes, we were happy to get that there. Isn't like we signed this in blood saying this is forever because we signed off something before this. We signed off for the conference, not for the tax. We didn't request a tax off in our budget plan, but once they said they have it in other precinct, yes, let's have it here too. Senior citizens are coming to my court daily, not waiting for tax times. We're elected officials and they're the same person that come to us as well and complain. They're complaining about the space, not what we're going to do when you open the tax office there. When you taupe tax office, that is going to crease the traffic flow. With this vestibule that we're talking about. At first we had 3 or 4,000 plans presented to us, we were glad to get space. I have four or five of them here now. We signed off on something we thought could work. We find out it can't work. We're not engineers. I don't know, I can't look at the scheme and say, hey, that will work and that's good. I listen to the once who brought it to us. If you want to stick to us and the people complain, we'll send them here.
>> don't send them to the county judge's office.
>> but let me say this: also we end up purchasing -- how much acreage did we end up purchasing?
>> two acre -- 2.45-acre.
>> and the purpose of that property to cause the growth of that area and of course for future expansion to accommodate that growth, that was intent and purpose of getting that particular acreage assigned to accommodate that type of growth, and of course I'm quite sure in the future there will be further expansion because of the growth, so we're looking out for the future, just not for the current, but we also try to make adjustments for the future whoever is on that particular Commissioner's court at that time. I still would like to say I think what I'm hearing, and I can see folks complaining, having to call my office, judge, I don't mind dealing with those kind of things. I'm hearing it from senior citizens who live in that area, adjacent to the area and folks coming here said it would be much more convenient to go to that office than go down to 5501 airport. I've heard that each before they went to the airport I heard it and I'm still hearing it. So those concerns and thoughts from the senior citizens are just as adamant as they were then, and of course I'm going to try to accommodate them the best I can. So of course we looking out for [inaudible] again I think we could work it out. As far as the monies are concerned, I'm looking forward to working on this maybe doing something during this budget cycle this year. Right now i've leaning toward if possible looking at the 125-foot area for make sure that that is included in there that will help alleviate part of the problem because then you're referring to about 65 square foot as opposed to not having that 125 new square footage that would add to the lobby area. I think it's something that we can work out. Hopefully the court will support this, if not, they don't support it. The folks have spoken to me and talked to me about this, I'm going ahead in that direction.
>> we're having present day problems.
>> I'm sorry.
>> what's the schedule on the delivery of the furniture?
>> delivery of the furniture?
>> yeah, when is the tax assessor's space supposed to be finished out?
>> come on in. [inaudible]
>> oh, I'm with facilities.
>> you need to get closing to the mic.
>> sorry.
>> I'm neesha with facilities. How are you guys? The furniture for the tax office, it was ordered but placed it on hold when these new issues came up to make sure that we were proceeding in the right direction.
>> will you keep feeling like a punching bag if we delay action on this for one week.
>> no.
>> we're going to do that. Y'all try to keep working on it, can we do that.
>> I have one other question, you have now what looks like a double entrance into the building.
>> that's right.
>> is it possible to eliminate i'll call it the second entrance
>> yes.
>> so we can create more space there.
>> yes, absolutely.
>> that very easily can create new space into the lobby and creative things related to seating, et cetera, but having visited the tax office up in Pflugerville, that is a very self contained office. People are not sitting out in the lobby area doing business with the tax office. They go into their little space, they do their gig and they leave, but I think the one that irritated me more than anything else on this letter was that the second conference room was being use ford all sorts of things related to the court and now it's going to become satellite tax office and it's like that issue was never brought up when we first talked about this, about that you need twod conference rooms as opposed to one.
>> may I address that, please?
>> please.
>> when the building was first designed it had two conference rooms and the community wanted those rooms for them to have meetings. When the design came to us, and we said once we remove one of my employees out of one of the conference rooms, that opened up a conference room, we had a conference room and a lobby, so the other conference room could just as well be for the tax office because we would have a conference room for the person, for the reasons previously stated. Now, that lobby is smaller and the people need a place to go and fill out forms and do the paperwork and sit and the senior citizens need a place to go, people with disabilities need a place to go, they can't stand up, we don't have seating for them, so we put them in the conference room. Now that conference room has been taken for lobby space presently being used for lobby space. Now we do not have a conference room. Prior to that, that's the room we thought we would have, the conference room, as well as the tax office.
>> I would like to say, too, ideas explored, roger, and that is that the second entrance be eliminate and that creates more lobby space. In addition to that, there was space taken away from the lobby and added on to judge scott for this little two person thing here. I would think hike utilizing that and put that back into the lobby space as jeel be able to get a water fountain when they do that?
>> quite possibly.
>> yes. Yes.
>> we expanded so much into the work area of the jp's office, so this is a very small amount but it could mean a great deal to the lobby.
>> will that fix it?
>> I have no idea. I have to see. They're better at looking at maps and diagrams than I am. I have no idea. The problem was when we first did that, we had problems with that space being built, and we had to go back and readjust. I wish you would come out and take a look and see the vestibule that you're talking about to see how that would address the issue. And if not having seen it, I think it would probably be a disservice to make comments on it.
>> what size is that.
>> 125 square feet.
>> just out there the other day.
>> but the design of it...
>> 125 square feet is what by what?
>> it's 12 by 10.
>> yeah, 12 -- you know, it's about like 12 by 10 or something like that. But it's a -- I can't give you the exact dimension but it's 125 feet. I don't have the exact...
>> okay.
>> one more thing, this area right there is not a conditioned area. So if I take the second door out, I have to do a little renovation to have it air conditioned.
>> that is also out of area the wall surface, it's not surface as inside a building. That's an outer area, so it's outside of the wall.
>> building exterior?
>> yeah, buil ing exterior.
>> yes, sir?
>> mr. Pierce, what percentage of taxes are paid in this county via coming to offices versus what we take in mail or I mean if you put -- is it 95%? What -- what percentage of business is done by walkup?
>>
>> (one moment, please, for change in captioners...)
>>
>> if you do the property tax, a great number of people come to the office on the last day. On the deadline day to pay their property taxes.
>> percentagewise what is that? Is it five percent of the total dollar?
>> 10 percent.
>> 10%. So 90% of the people elect to pay other than coming to the office. All right. The other things we do like car titles and those kind of things, I can see where the overwhelming majority of the people have to do that in person.
>> they don't have to do it in person.
>> they don't have to -- they can do it online.
>> they choose to do that. They have the online option and it has gone over well, but there have been a lot of complaints about the fee for that. That's another session. But the vast majority of the people do handle their tax and vehicle registration through some other means and coming in person.
>> all right. Thank you. And one more question, and roger, this may be for you. I do think that a lot of people get themselves in trouble with looking at these kinds of things and signing off. The practicality of seeing this thing -- it's kind of like buying shirts with swatches. I like that swatch, I want to shirt. You get the shirt and you go, oh, god, I hate the shirt. It's kind of the same stuff with this here. You're not an engineer, you're a judge, a jp. And -- which is the reason why I think that we need to have something in place. And I think we do have some professionals within our organization that are designed spatial people that have the ability to really go and say, now, judge scott, I know y'all signed off on this thing, but let me tell you what this does to you. This puts six people in this room. And if they have to turn around, they can't do it. So you need to understand this. Because these are the kind of things to do get overly expensive to us. I mean, you know, change orders, when you start getting into all of this kind of business, this is what drives cost out the roof. And then it just really makes people crazy like this thing here. I mean, you practically have an issue out there. I can see where you do. I'm -- I'm sure you're sorry that you signed off on it now because practically what you signed off on on what you thought was going to be actuality are two different things. So we did learn a lesson. But there are all sorts of places all over the county, not just the county, you know, when things get built, even in private. So I think that we need to really learn a lesson from this and make sure that we bring whoever in to all of these kind of situations. And I know one particular person. I think they used to be under your employment, roger, that has those specific skills to design and to make sure that everybody understands what we're signing off on. But -- and that may not be you, roger, in that when somebody says, hey, you build this and you're going to say I'm going to build that, so we have somehow got to find out whenever we are designing things and getting people to sign off on things, especially from a cost standpoint, that you really know, you know, what you're getting. And not just y'all because I think that -- I'm sure that I would say yeah, that room is big enough to accommodate all this stuff, and by the time you find out, you just don't have it. Roger, we can work on that.
>> sure. May I make a comment?
>> yeah.
>> sure, for everything -- Commissioner, we do this, what you just mentioned. We don't go blindly and say here it is, we're going to build it for you. We had a lot of sessions go forth and back to make sure that is what they want and we explain the situation. That's what we did on the airport boulevard building. Even though it was a rushed, fast track project. We met with the users and say here it is. We went through the details. And everything. And we did the same thing on jp 1 project right here. Yes, we did. And what I'm trying to say is all this part of our programming and schematic design, once we get to the schematic design, at that time we put -- lay out for all the offices and everything, at that time we say, okay, here it is. From there on, it's become like a design development phase and construction, document phase where there's nothing else need to be changed as far as the spaces are required. There's the only thing for us to just put in the walls and construct the -- design the constructed element. So at that time when we say the schematic design, that's the longest time for us is to get the programming up to the schematic design. To do the design development to finish the project is not as much time as the one before.
>> roger, I hear what you're saying, but let me tell you something. Something has failed in this deal. I mean, you don't have people go out and see people standing in parking lots and standing around and realize that, do you know what, there is a problem here. Whatever the system was that was put in place in order to design this building and to accommodate -- because it's not like y'all just started in precinct 1 doing courtroom stuff and jp stuff. I mean, there's a lot of history. So if somebody says, do you know what, we may have 60 people in a space at one time or 80 people or whatever the number is, so somewhere there was a mistake made. And I think we need to identify how that mistake was made so that we can apply whatever we're going to do next because we will be doing additional buildings and whatever. So there is an issue somewhere in this thing, unless you just go out and you just build a large -- maybe we don't have that issue in precinct 4 because we just have a much larger building or whatever, but given that you know how many people you basically are going to need to accommodate, then there needs to be somebody that says, do you know what, judge, before you sign off on this thing, I don't think you really have the space in here that you need. And that's obviously what we've got because we just have a situation here where we don't have enough whom room to accommodate the business.
>> just to follow-up, the 2,000 students you were talking about and 1500 at webb, that's an -- in addition to what i've indicated we'll have. We've worked together. We was looking at the information. There was no foj of things said. Reduced it for what? We didn't know, but we wanted to get the project going and we signed off.
>> roger, can you please remind me where were we when this project was approved? How much net new space was being added to jp 1?
>> okay. Jp 1, the space existing was 2635. The new space is 3,099.
>> so we aed 964 square feet. And the polite is not about whether the office has enough space, but whether the public was shortchanged in that. And there was no discussion about whether some of that ought to stay with the public as opposed to jp 1. On constable 1, what were they before and after?
>> on constable 1, existing 2,192. New is 2549. The added space, 357.
>> not as much, but we added some space there. So we did not net decreased space for either jp or constable 1. We increased it. And on the jp side, substantially. And if there was a shaking off of some lobby space -- shaving off of some lobby space, it was done to add more space for the staff as opposed to the public. So to me that's the first place we look is some of that reconfiguration of the space that we added, almost a thousand square feet. That is not a small amount when we're talking about site and all this, this is over 200 square feet when we add almost 1200 square feet.
>> how much foot was taken from the building without taking from the lobby.
>> 1321 square feet.
>> that's correct. And -- the total added to the building is 1,521 because we have 200 square feet for the tax office.
>> there you go.
>> so the added space the jp is 964. Constable 357. Tax office, 200. Total building addition or expansion, 1,551. -- 1,521.
>> so if we take out the new room for the tax office, the total square footage for jp 1 and constable 1 now is how much?
>> it's 1,321.
>> not the additional, just the total.
>> the total.
>> cumulative.
>> cumulative. The cumulative is 6,348 if you exclude the tax office it would be 6,148.
>> 1,148.
>> how -- 6,148.
>> how does that compare to the space for the jp and constable in precinct 4? That's all right. Give it to me for 4, 2 and 3. Just the space for the jp and the constable.
>> wnd ea need to know how many cases because these courts are not by any stretch of the imagination equal. Jp 2 is twice as large as anybody else.
>> let me suggest this also. The additional purchase of the acreage adjacent to the building. It was designed basically just for that, and that is to accommodate growth and also for expansion capabilities and may particular precinct 1 office building. So that's the reason we did that and that's something we may need to look at in the future.
>> we know you'll be around another four.
>> at least. [ laughter ]
>> we'll have it back on next week. Thank y'all very much.
>> thank you.
Last Modified: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 7:22 AM