Travis County Commssioners Court
December 9, 2003
The Closed Caption log for this Commissioners Court agenda item is provided by Travis County Internet Services. Since this file is derived from the Closed Captions created during live cablecasts, there are occasional spelling and grammatical errors. This Closed Caption log is not an official record the Commissioners Court Meeting and cannot be relied on for official purposes. For official records please contact the County Clerk at (512) 854-4722.
Item 15
Now, we have one other item that we should cover. We do have a representative of the capital hockey ventures team, number 15. This pertains to the chairs that we discussed last week. If you would give us your full name, we would be happy to get your comments.
>> and your position with the organization.
>> my name is jeff buck and I'm the president of capital hockey ventures. And we're here to talk about the issues with regards to the chairs. I understand we could probably go through everything or can I assume that you know where we are and go to the legal points?
>> we did get a briefing last week and we're told that you wanted to address us and could not last week, so we posted this item today to hear from you. We had a briefing, though.
>> I wasn't told about last week. I'm sorry about that.
>> I would hit the highlights if I were you.
>> when we purchased the team in July, we entered into a lease agreement with the county, with the exposition center. And as part of that, any time somebody in our position rents out a facility such as a building that entertains, whether it's a hockey game, it's zoomed that the seating goes with that rental. When we went -- when the county showed us what the chairs were that were going to be in there two weeks before our first game, the chairs were -- were unusable. I don't think that's a disputed fact. I think all parties agree that the best chairs -- of the 925 chairs that the county owns, they were able to show me less than eight 80 which in their words were satisfactory, and satisfactory means punched with holes in them, knife holes, taped up with blue duct tape, the framing around them were completely rusted out, and the bottom of the chairs had completely cracked. So it's undisputed that the chairs were not serviceable and couldn't be used. The only place that our contract with the county speaks to the chairs is in amendment 4 when it specifically says the county will be responsible for the risers and chairs in exhibit a, period. I spoke to one of the county attorney's, john hil yes about this, and his comment to me was we're not responsible about chairs. And when I directed him to that clause, he said okay, well, we did maintain them, period. That's it. And I said john, you're a lawyer, I'm a lawyer, that is not legal argument. You know that. I know you're smarter than that. His implication is we didn't maintain them, but there's no remedy for breach. We have thousands of fans who come to our games. We could not be in a position of not having chairs. So we went ahead and I told the county I was doing this, that we would purchase -- we were purchasing the chairs for them. That it was absolutely in our contract, it says they are 100% responsible for the maintenance of the chairs, period. Again, there's no dispute that they haven't been maintained and they need to be replaced.
>> there is a dispute about the duty to maintain them, though.
>> no, there can't be. I don't know how there can be when it's very specific. It says that the county is responsible for maintaining. --
>> did john refer you to another section in the contract, though?
>> no, he did not.
>> refer him to the other section and let him look at it over lunch. And you can let us know what you think about it at 1:30 either by e-mail, telephone or in person.
>> I know the contract pretty well and I might be able to respond to it.
>> are we talking about the section -- the whole section is what's important. If you can just read that rather than the one sentence that he read that it says at the beginning that for the sum of one dollar and other good consideration, k and j sells and the county will accept the chiller plan and all the items on exhibit a, which is the chairs. So the ice bats sold us the chairs. Then the sentence goes on, the next sentence after that, upon acceptance, county will be responsible for the risers and chairs. If not satisfactory, k and g will attempt to repair the items. Then on down it says county may license use of the chiller plant and items listed in exhibit a, which includes the chairs, to a conditioned j, and to third parties when not in use for the games. Any revenue accrued from such licenses shall belong solely to the county. What this means and what we have discussed, Commissioners, is the chairs belong to the county, we bought them and that we may license the chairs to the ice bats if we choose to. We don't have to. So as that respect goes, we don't have to maintain them for your use.
>> I don't agree.
>> if you want to buy your own chairs, which you have, that's fine, please, go ahead. If you want to have a better place than what we're offering, that's your prerogative.
>> with all due respect --
>> you and john have discussed this numerous tiles and have not -- times and have not been able to resolve it?
>> yes.
>> where are the chairs used?
>> the chairs are used exclusively at the Travis County expo center.
>> where.
>> on the floor, the first four rows along the sides and along the very ends. There's about 13 or 14 rows on the end.
>> so you bought the chairs.
>> we bought 900 chairs.
>> at what cost?
>> at $13 each.
>> and what if our position is we don't want to own 900 chairs? Do we have the right to take that position?
>> no, not in my or my attorney's legal opinion you do not.
>> where in the contract does it say that?
>> is it it say -- it says here that you are responsible for 925 chairs, of which the county told me at best they could find 700 of them. So one, you are responsible for supplying 925 chairs.
>> it doesn't say that. No, it does not say that.
>> it says you are responsible for the chairs in the exhibit a. Exhibit a clearly states 925 925 chairs.
>> i.
>> you sold them to us, but we don't have to provide them any more am.
>> you have not been able to resolve this.
>> using his argument --
>> your position is we are responsible for owning 900 chairs, one. Two is we're responsible also for making those chairs available to the hockey team.
>> yeah, my position is you are responsible for providing those chairs to us. Whether you choose to own them or lease them is not my concern.
>> where is that language?
>> I'm sorry, there is no language that addresses that -- I'm responding to your comment that said you had to own them.
>> that's the question, where is the requirement that we're supposed to have 900 chairs to provide to the hockey team?
>> right here where it says even using his argument, which I do not agree with, it says that you will license those items in exhibit a to k and j. If those items, exhibit a, including 925 dhairz.
>> license means what?
>> I have no idea. In his opinion --
>> no, what is you're your definition of license?
>> in his opinion it's allow us to use them.
>> so license without charge.
>> if you want through back history, absolutely because there was no charge for them in the previous year.
>> all right. If we go to black's law dictionary and look up the definition of license, what will we find?
>> you will have to tell me.
>> if I knew, i'd tell you.
>> okay.
>> let's find out this afternoon. It looks like we'll have to discuss it with the county attorney in executive session. So one question is okay, let's license you the chairs. And I'm thinking that means basically we provide the chairs for a charge. We don't provide the chairs, we don't charge you. You go out and buy your own chairs, you don't need to license them from us because you've got them. Right now you went out and bought 900 chairs and you basically want the county to do what?
>> it's the county's chairs. It's their building, it's their chairs, in my opinion. Reimburse me for the chairs.
>> you bought 900 chairs and you're telling us that we have to buy them from you.
>> my options were to open up the building that I rent from you and not have any chairs for people to sit in in the lower level, which was impossible. And it was suggested to me that there was no way that it would happen in time and that in order to get the chairs, I would have to purchase them ahead of time and then ask for a refund after the fact.
>> how much did the chairs cost?
>> the chairs cost -- it was either 12 or $13,000. I passed the invoice along.
>> okay.
>> jeff, you thought that you had the right to go out and purchase these chairs and that you would be reimbursed. Did anybody from the county tell you that?
>> in the exact words, we will reimburse you was not said, but it was said -- what I just mentioned to the judge was, we will not be able to act on this in time. You will -- you need to go out and do what you have to do, buy the chairs and then ask to be reimbursed after the fact.
>> will you agree to joint ownership of the chairs, which means you pay half and the county pays half? We own them together? That means basically that when the hockey season is not in, we basically use the chairs for any other purpose if there is one. Think about that and let us know by telephone, e-mail. We'll call this item up in my view this afternoon.
>> is that an offer that I can accept? I'm just wondering what the -- if it's an offer --
>> it's the county judge talking off the cuff, trying to figure out a way to compromise this. That came from one person and the full court will be voting this an. It does seem to me that -- we will be here this afternoon. It may be that we have to wait until next week to make a decision. A lot depends on what we discuss in executive session. This issue has been with us how long?
>> it's been around since September.
>> we need to get it behind us if we can.
>> can I have one question, though? I'm a little confused as to the attorney's role in this matter. Is the attorney's role to be an advocate for the county or is the attorney's role to be an advocate for the law?
>> the county attorney's office represents the Commissioners court. As such, the county attorney represents -- basically is an advocate for us. But a legal advisor also. Our role is to do the right thing. And to me the right thing is not spending $12,000 to -- there are 900 chairs there. You bought them. And I assume that after hockey season, you don't plan to take the chairs with you wherever you spend time during off season. So the chairs will be there. If we can use them, then I assume we should be able to. I mean, we -- we can create a defined value in 900 chairs that we may be able to use, but if we can't use them, it makes it more difficult, except there is a claim and I would like to get it behind us.
>> okay.
>> but this claim also comes under -- (indiscernible).
>> we didn't make the purchase. [inaudible - no mic].
>> you can address this outside of the purchasing act if it's going to be a claim, settlement of a claim.
>> my whole point, let me know if you're ready to go to lunch, but it's that no one gave you permission to do that as far as what I can tell. I have a problem with you doing things independent and not getting the proper direction from the court or staff.
>> I understand your point.
>> right. I don't want to go into a deliberation, but that's what I'm having a problem with.
>> this was if you -- and I want to -- if I could just say my piece. Two weeks before our first game after asking to see the chairs for months, I was finally shown the chairs. They were finally pulled out. This was not a situation where all of a sudden I just decided, okay, I'm going to buy new chairs. This is something that we had asked about for months, and there was a reason why we weren't shown the chairs, and that was because in my opinion the director of the expo center knew the condition that they were in.
>> you use them at every hockey game?
>> every hockey game.
>> thank you.
>> thank you very much.
>> if you want to reach us by phone at 1:30 or 1:45 would be good, I think.
>> which I am. Who should I give my phone number to? [overlapping speakers].
>> we're going to recess until 1:30. All in favor? It's unanimous.
Last Modified: Tuesday, December 10, 2003 6:44 AM