Travis County Commssioners Court
October 28, 2003
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Item 39
Number 39 is to consider and take appropriate action on a request to use rigid concrete pavement under section 82.302-d-4, standards for construction of streets and drainage in subdivisions of the Travis County code.
>> good morning. Currently it appears in the green book that there may have been an intention for concrete pavement to be usable, but 82.002 doesn't specifically permit its use. It only refers to hmac. We have had proposed to us a development presidential meadows, which is slightly across 290 and slightly to the east of the city of manor. It's about a 1600-acre lot subdivision ultimately that has proposed the use of rigid ore concrete pavement. However, this has a wider -- I think this is a wider issue in the sense that right now Travis County has limited ability to maintain concrete pavements, so we're bringing it before you to talk about that fact. We have established this as -- we have established this as a sort of an experiment where we're allowing -- we're conditionally allowing with your approval the use of this payment under certain conditions, conditions that we would not, for example, ordinarily require of a project that was going to do a standard payment. The idea behind that is to do the best we can to guarantee a successful experiment with concrete pavement. For example, we're requiring that the geo technical consultant remain on the project as an engineer, which is something that doesn't usually happen. We are requiring the use of what are called dry utility trenches that typically line either side of the pavement to be used for the coincident purpose of groundwater interception. The idea being to control as much as possible the moisture content of the subgrade underneath the roadway. And of course, in these areas of these plastic clays, that's the key, that's what causes the the road to move around is the shrinking and the swelling of that material by more or less moisture. That's a very good thing. Also, the contractor -- excuse me. The developer has agreed to -- in the original design the geotechnical engineer, there are different kind of clays out there, and the geotechnical engineer specified a thickness in general for this. And in the condition of these other type of clays existing in the subgrade, I added one inch of wearing surface pavement to be used in those areas. Well, the developer and the county agreed that we're going to put that one inch extra thickness of concrete pavement over the entire subdivision, so we don't have to worry about whether or not we've got it in the right place or not. We're going to -- the way this plan is set up, particularly with respect to the use of the geotechnical consultant on the job, is it will allow for the concrete mix design to be reviewed specifically prior to its placement. There will be prepower placements for construction layout, samples for testing will be conducted by the geo technical engineer. And the compliance of the design recommendations for contraction joint locations, all very important elements of a successful rigid pavement design. Again, we put this together as an experiment. I would recommend that we consider this -- allowing this type of pavement under these or conceivably more rigid conditions if we find some reason to change them with this for some time period. I wouldn't recommend more than two years to start with. After that time we can revisit it along the way or revisit it then and see.
>> so would you train your staff with the additional skills in order to be able to maintain this kind of --
>> not only staff, but equipment.
>> equipment.
>> that's for a total cost of what?
>> at this point you'd have to have a certain threshold of miles of this type of road before its worth your money to buy the equipment to do it. So part of it is let's find out how it behaves first of all. And if it looks like this may be the future of roads in eastern Travis County, then we'll have to buy the equipment and staff up to maintain concrete roads.
>> so we would do like an experiment for the two years?
>> right.
>> that's what we're suggesting, yes, ma'am.
>>
>> [one moment, please, for change in captioners]
>>
>> ... For this type of -- of -- of a -- of a drainage and street -- using rigid concrete pavement type of setting as opposed to just the regular -- opposed to what we are doing now?
>> if we end up with -- I goings the way to answer that question probably lies in -- whether or not the experiment is successful or not. I would say that -- that first of all, I would say that this -- I would not restrict this experiment necessarily to this particular subdivision. Although we could.
>> no.
>> if we put this in and allow all of the right tools to allow to us have a successful experiment and it turns out to be successful, the potential is for there to be a wider use of a successfully stalled ridge and pavement may very well reduce the entire cost of maintenance of all of that relative to --
>> [multiple voices]
>> hmac that's kind of the idea here.
>> based on the upkeep. That's the answer that I was looking for. Just what you just said wrks the conditions over --, with the conditions over there, the movement of clay, ground shift over there, that's probably a lot of maintenance, upkeep on those things anyway, which I don't know. I'm quite sure that it is. So -- so my question is this -- since you said this won't be the only one, but for this -- this will be the first of many that we will be looking at under this kind of rigid concrete pavement?
>> traditionally the cost of rigid pavement in this area hasn't been competitive to hmac.
>> has not -- [multiple voices]
>> it's also true that by and large the -- the preponderians of development in Travis County has taken place in areas where these clays did not exist. So it may be that there's a shift going on both in terms of where development is going, certainly right now that side of i-35 is the hot side in terms of development. As you get more and more use. If a successful -- if it can be proved out by an experiment that rigid pavement can perform better in those conditions, then you will see more and more of its use.
>> I may add that there's another factor that may have some bearing here. And that is state highway 130 is being done with concrete.
>> exactly.
>> that was a very important factor in the -- and the reason why lone star got the contract and the competitors did not. Now, if they have -- if they have production underway to make concrete for state highway 130, it may be during that phase of construction concrete is going to be cheap relative to asphalt for those developers around the same area. So you may see other [indiscernible] in the area are taking advantage once the state highway 130 plan is up and running. But maybe short term.
>> I think it's worth a try on that.
>> it's good through 2007. Because that's when it's going to open.
>> I would like on move plawfl on this if there's no more discussion on it.
>> seconded by Commissioner Gomez, I have a few questions.
>> sorry, go ahead, judge.
>> what's the length of the subdivision, how many miles is it?
>> judge, I don't know this. Is a sizable development. There's -- there's maybe -- david gray is here, the engineer. Do you have any guess on that, david?
>> david?
>> how long did --
>> 20 miles.
>> initially the first few sections will be about [indiscernible] ultimately there will be approximately 1800 lots in this subdivision. [inaudible - no mic]
>> the answer to my question is about 3 miles [indiscernible]
>> > finally, how many, in the end how many.
>> 1800 -- oh, the lots, excuse me, miles. Probably typically 10 miles of road.
>> so the residential streets in the city of Austin are asphalt or con keith if.
>> asphalt.
>> asphalt.
>> and in the new residential subdivisions outside the city of Austin asphalt, also?
>> mostly, yes.
>> for the most part, yes, sir.
>> what's the reason for trying concrete?
>> lasts longer.
>> lasts longer.
>> could you come to the microphone. We will get yelled at if we don't get you out there.
>> I'm sorry. [indiscernible] the reason that we are proposing the use of concrete streets in this subdivision is the longevity of the subdivision. This is a multi-year master planned community. The defeat tearation of the initial phases of the development over a period of time can have an adverse effect on the value and marketability of future sections within the development. Some of the first streets were -- we are putting in in this project are some of the entrance streets which will need to remain in service and in good condition over a period of, you know, five to 10 years that will development will be marking house, in consultation with this developer and area contractors, we believe, if you will, the tide of the economics of doing concrete streets is turning. I think as fred indicated earlier, cob secret streets have not been cost effective in years past. A lot of that has to do with not only the lack of materials in this area, but also the lack of experience and a lack of need for concrete streets because most of the development has been west. We are seeing a great deal of development pressure in the east. Many of the contractors are becoming more competitive in their evaluation of their pricing on this, their methods of installation. We believe that it will become more competitive with the asphalt and concrete and also provide those other benefits that I talked about long-term of having less maintenance, goes in quicker, it will provide a nice product. Not only for the county, from the standpoint of maintenance of streets, but also frankly from the standpoint of the character of the development over -- over a longer period of time.
>> okay.
>> what do you think? Better quality than asphalt will last longer?
>> over time the price will be more competitive than it's been historically.
>> if we take five miles of concrete compared to five miles of asphalt, what's the -- what's the -- the cost for maintain for each?
>> just has to write it out.
>> in the end that's what it boils down for us, right, joe.
>> the thing would be after the rules are constructed they would expect the -- after the roads are constructed they would expect them to maintain them into the future.
>> what's different is the life cycle, you are going to maintain an asphalt road more frequently than a concrete road.
>> under normal circumstances.
>> under normal circumstances, that's why this is so important. If the con -- if the experimentings poorly, concrete is going to be much more expensive to maintain.
>> what's the cost difference?
>> I'm trying to think off the top of my head, judge. I would be wild guessing on you right now. I would have to look at it and put a better pencil to it. Because of the lack of experience with the maintenance of concrete right now.
>> give us your best estimate by e-mail. What's the construction schedule? Of the roads? The first three miles.
>> the construction schedule is to start work within 30 days. The initial phase development will take a period of approximately six months to get -- become -- to come on line.
>> the costs to maintain, that's the question, right? We need to know that notwithstanding all of the other possibilities that -- that -- I can get the answer after today. But --
>> do you think we ought to wait, judge, a week to get that number.
>> it makes sense to me. If they are close they are going to be [indiscernible] over time. If they are greatly different, though, could become a factor.
>> I can wait a week until we get those numbers. Right now -- we do have the city of fort worth and dallas that have tried this already, right?
>> yes, sir.
>> I would ask them. I'm not against this, die think we ought to be informed before we make a decision.
>> also down in harris county my subdivision out northwest Travis County, all of those things are done with concrete roads. I can just tell you that I hope this experiment if we approve this works because there's nothing more heart breaking than to see some of the -- of the dollars that we have poured out for not in northeast Travis County and eastern Travis County and you can get one drought and all of a sudden the -- the stuff just falls apart. Or you have a saturation, does just the opposite. In terms of what -- of what those roads can -- can get all messed up from because of the manufactured housing that is being driven over those roads an the heavy truck traffic because there's a more limited road network out there, we are seeing our stuff just get ruined. Because it just can't take it because it's beyond our control. I'm thrilled with s.h. 130 came in as concrete because -- [multiple voices]
>> they would be fixing that forever.
>> yeah, yeah, yeah.
>> there's no question if you can get competitive with a concrete --
>> yeah!
>> $50 a yard now [multiple voices]
>> what we are looking at is a linear foot of street, we feel like we might be somewhere between $75 a foot. We may be people 10% higher right now on concrete. Versus asphalt, the long-term benefits in a concrete street construction, some of you -- if -- you may have seen it before, you pour your curbs when you are pouring a street so it's an integral monolithic pour so you end up with both of those processes being done at the same time. Speed is a factor quite frankly in the development industry, no doubt. I think you get a superior problem, because you don't get the seepage, moisture, things like that.
>> that need to be thrown in as a factor, also, again as -- I asked the question earlier about the operation and maintenance bhald be the cost be compared to -- compared to this rigid concrete pavement. Low maintenance, of course. Opposed to high maintenance on the other. Then that's the cost factor. What that is, I don't really know at this time.
>> we wouldn't be crazy enough not to -- I mean, just the difference in what you are going to have with this concrete versus asphalt from a maintenance standpoint is --
>> it's huge.
>> I mean, it's huge.
>> right.
>> I mean that's the reason that you see capital metro going in for these outer lanes putting the concrete bases in because, you know, it's the only thing that can take on the axle weights and the things that you have to have. I mean, from the maintenance stand point, you can -- you can probably get rid some of crews. As far as that. Now the front end cost is also the deal and it's a great opportunity for s.h. 130 if we can get out in that area and buy in on some of the -- some of the concrete.
>> that's a compliment for capital metro, right? [laughter]
>> I'm glad you recognized that.
>> we can -- we can bring it back next week. Let's do that. Let's bring it back next week.
>> seems like something -- [multiple voices]
>> cost factors in it. I would like to see that. I know I asked the question, also. But go ahead.
>> like all good ideas, it starts with a pilot. I'm looking at this as a pilot.
>> yeah.
>> in the same way that we said, you know what f mix [multiple voices]
>> yeah.
>> it slightly changed up the second year of f mix. It was worth it. We took a risk and it paid off.
>> sure did.
>> this pilot will be back on next week.
>> thank you.
>> thank you all.
>> thank you.
Last Modified: Wednesday, October 28, 2003 7:52 AM