Travis County Commssioners Court
September 2, 2003
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Item 9
Standards for construction of streets, do we have the right people here on this one? Street and drainage and subdivision in Travis County for crayton's crossing to allow for a subdivision with a joint use driveway. Why don't we take 6 a first? I did see the notation. In the memo about noting on the plat basically. I guess my question is are we admitting our responsibility with that, what potential liability are we left with? In other words, the legal sufficiency of the plat notation in terms of protecting the county treasury.
>> well, plat approval is a discretionary function and there's plenty of caselaw that basically says as long as you're acting in good faith, there's no liability that attaches to the act of approving a plat. So I think that there's little or no exposure here to the county treasury that I can see.
>> resident says about this home first time there was -- I bought this home first time there was a heavy rain because it was in the floodplain or the floodplain kept me from the public road, now I cannot get to my improvement you shouldn't have approved the plat, I think we're okay when we say yeah, but noted on the plat...
>> I think you would be immune even if you approved the plat without the note, you know, the plat note f. It does anything, reduces any exposure because you're putting people on notice of the situation out there. I think you're safe even if you don't add the note, you know, the note helped the county out. Helps the homeowner out because they're going to have better information to decide whether to buy a lot in that subdivision or not.
>> if the road way that is in the floodplain that causes us concern.
>> anna bolen, Travis County tnr. Road way causes us concern and the joint use driveway gives us concern given that it goes through the floodplain, the floodplain is at the front of those lots. The location of that driveway, though, was the one that had the best possible sight distance along those lots that would be using that driveway. Even in -- we're concerned about naturally the flooding conditions but we're also concerned about the rest of the year them having -- being able to get in and out of those lots safely without having sight distance issues and there's a lot of topography on the road. That driveway does go through the floodplain but it's the safest place we felt for it to be.
>> the first time there's an accident the county gets dragged into it we say basically we noted a potential problem on the plat, but based on all of the circumstances this driveway at this location is probably the best available?
>> it was more desirable to us to have the one driveway than have two driveways and not need the variance on the road in this plat, yes.
>> what if anything happened related to the concerns raised by chief don smith, esd 4 related to the difficulty of getting their vehicles in and out and hydrants and turn arounds, where did that wind up?
>> well, they have -- on this driveway they have a turn around. The issue that really remains is the all-weather access aspect of it, and because of that we had not just a plat note but also our manager is going to sign an affidavit stating some of these problems in case the constituents don't get a copy of their plat, this will show up in the deed records, and they will know that these problems are out there.
>> some of the most distressing phone call wes had to take as as constituent phone calls are people saying we're needing out, we can't get in, we can't get out, and it was no consolation whatever to them that they ought to have known that when they bought the property, and I'm just, I haven't talked to anybody about this, but I'm not going to approve one more plat knowingly saying it's okay that we can't get fire trucks in and out of here, and it's okay that your kid consist get stuck or mom and dad get stuck. I can't go there. I mean this is just -- they need to figure out a way to deal with the issues out there, or I can't be a part of this. I'm sorry. Because i've gotten those constituent phone calls and it comes down to why were we ever allowed to have houses here? And I don't have an answer for them so...
>> how unusual is this?
>> it floods on spice wood springs road fairly frequently.
>> how unusual is it for us to recommend a approval of a plat such as this after making our I guess observations?
>> this is the first type of variance like this in this situation that we've ever bought.
>> how big a deal is this variance?
>> what options do they have?
>> is the property owner here?
>> that question was directed to you, though, joe, the big deal question. How big a deal is it?
>> are you questioning me?
>> our joe.
>> our joe, sorry.
>> it's 6 households, and they could put in two driveways and avoid a variance but that does not mitigate against the safety issue of the flooding. Even with two driveways, getting in and out of these six lots will be a problem during the flooding stage. They will have no way to get in and out. E.m.s., Fire, will have no way to get in and out so, I would say I haven't seen many examples. I'm glad it's not a larger subdivision, but we're still dealing with six potential homeowners who will be at risk.
>> this property has been in this family for over 40 years. There are two residences that have existed out there for all of this time. Each has been served with a separate driveway to spice wood springs road. The -- the flooding situation is out there. These homes have been out there. The people that live in these homes are obviously aware of it. The variance request is essentially just trying to maintain the longstanding access that this property has enjoyed from spice wood springs road t two driveways are existing out there today, we have gone to one driveway because it is a safer situation as relates to sight distance for the driveway out there. And we placed notes on the plat. As staff has pointed out there's also a separate instrument that is recorded with the plat that comes up for any title run for anyone purchasing property out there, and we would ask that you would approve this variance.
>> so the intention is to add four more homes to the two already there.
>> that's correct.
>> for a total of 6?
>> yes, sir,.
>> and the two have been there how long?
>> one I know 40 plus years that the family has owned this property. The other one they've only been there for 30 year, but a very long time, yes, sir.
>> is the driveway the only variance or is there a floodplain variance also?
>> no, the driveway is the only variance.
>> so we authorize one joint use driveway rather than two and in our view the one is a whole lot better than the two that we could require?
>> yes, sir. And it's not the amount of lots that would require the variance. It's the fact that it would not have all-weather access. That is the part of the variance -- that's what needs the variance, not the number of lots, because I think in '99 y'all changed the amount of lots that could be on the driveway without a variance but it's the all-weather aspect of...
>> all-weather access means what?
>> being able to get to the lots...
>> regardless of weather.
>> regardless of wther. And I was mistaken. The variance is related to the all-weather access. Even if they had two driveways, it would still require a variance.
>> what other options are here, tom, related to -- if we say yes or if we say no, need to rethink this one in terms of something where we don't have to contribute knowingly. I mean if this -- if this did not require a variance I'm there, because they meet our standards. But is there a nonvariance solution here? Because otherwise I'm stuck on where I'm landing consider bing the history that goes out in that area.
>> anna, confirm this for me, if they didn't get the variance, if they built the joint use driveway to our standards, and the joint use driveway was all-weather access, that still wouldn't eliminate the problem of emergency vehicles and the like not having access because they would still have to rely on spice wood springs road for all-weather access. Even if they meet standards the real problem is the road that is providing the access which is spice wood springs it's not all-weather access because it's in the 100 year floodplain.
>> joe, do we have any guidance on any other place, there are places that flood all over the place, in terms of somebody being able to legally access their property but it happens on a road that goes in and out like spice wood springs. Is there any other road that can give us guidance here.
>> no, I can't think of any other place like this where not just the driveway but the road itself is under water when it rains. There's absolutely no other way to get access to this property because it's up against a cliff. I mean, to deny a driveway, it's not like they can find another way into the property.
>> but are we required to do something that requires a variance but has to do with something of this magnitude? I mean, we do variances all the time, but this is -- this is a different kind of variance in terms of what we say it's okay to do.
>> I'm not sure, and tom is probably best to answer this question, I don't think it requires a great variance. You're required to approve a plat if it meets our standards.
>> right.
>> and that's where the variance comes in.
>> if you fail to grant variance, I imagine the plat just goes away.
>> one what goes away, jim, if we don't?
>> the subdivision plat.
>> so meaning that they can't put new homes up there.
>> the existing use is trivial.
>> can we take another week on this and think about this more because I'm extraordinarily concerned about this precedent because I know i've had to deal with some things related to really putting the hammer down relating to some of our manufactured housing subdivisions for I'm sorry, all purpose access is a requirement and especially we have them work with the esds in terms of getting the vehicles to be able to turn around and some of the really awful cases -- remember that condo case up in westlake area, things like if we could have stopped that situation from happening, because that is where an emergency vehicle could not get to that condo complex and it burned down. I would love to take another -- do we have another week.
>> uh-huh.
>> can we take a week? Because I would like to see what other options are here, because I'm extraordinarily uncomfortable.
>> if it comes up with the other options, tnr?
>> working with the applicant.
>> because it sounds like to me the bigger problem is here if you grant the variance spice wood springs road is -- is the bigger problem than the variance issue. We're not going to be able to do anything with the spice wood springs road. Now, I'm willing for you to talk to me for a week. You've got the experience because this was for so long in your area and I don't think i've had a phone call in precinct 3 to date, I mean in the ten months that we've had this issue, but i've certainly been in Austin long enough to know that spice wood springs road is -- is a real problem at times.
>> one of the saddest letters that I ever had to read was from this little kid that wrote me a letter that basically said why am I in a neighborhood where my mom and dad can't get to me when it floods and I didn't have an answer for this young man. Didn't have an answer. It's like, well, they were allowed to do that and that didn't sit very well when he was sitting there at home wondering why his parents couldn't get to him because flooding hadn't receded.
>> I do know of another iferb in precinct 3 out in the bee cave area where we've got an issue great divide or whatever. Whatever there you've got -- so let me tell you what, you can get into a can of worms with this thing. There are a number of places especially on the west side where it's inundated with water, you know, a number of road ways.
>> and we have that situation up near Pflugerville. And they were just flat out told, you need to figure out a solution that meets the 100 year floodplain and they decided not to do that because they couldn't.
>> I'm going to take a look...
>> see if we can talk about this more.
>> Commissioner Sonleitner requests an extension.
Last Modified: Wednesday, September 3, 2003 7:52 AM