Travis County Commssioners Court
July 22, 2003
The Closed Caption log for this Commissioners Court agenda item is provided by Travis County Internet Services. Since this file is derived from the Closed Captions created during live cablecasts, there are occasional spelling and grammatical errors. This Closed Caption log is not an official record the Commissioners Court Meeting and cannot be relied on for official purposes. For official records please contact the County Clerk at (512) 854-4722.
Item 28
28, discuss and take appropriate action on east metro park master plan.
>> as they are getting ready, I want to acknowledge coach fred akers who is in the audience. As a university of Texas graduate, it's so glad to see you here and your interest in not only this item but the one before. Welcome. [applause]
>> thank you, judge, for taking this item up. I know a lot of the people in the audience -- [multiple voices]
>> a lot of the people in the audience that were here for the landfill items are also interested in the park master plan. We have hired a consultant, land design studio, to help us master plan the new east metro park. And we have purchased a piece of property, 260 acres, about three, four miles to the east of manor. And for the past five months we have been working with the community in developing a master plan for that piece of property. And gary bellamn is here to walk us through the outcome of those meetings and present the master plan. So with that, gary, you take that mike and give us a presentation.
>> thank you, joe.
>> good morning.
>> can you hear me?
>> yes.
>> appreciate you having us today. We're excited about the project, as I know you are. It's been a little bit of an outside the box experience, the way we've approached the project. The outcome, I think, has been dictated by that experience, and essentially what we've done is throw it open to community input sort of far and wide. The package you have in front of you are documents that -- documents the process we went through to get that public input, which included about a 10 or 12 different engagements from internet access surveys, newspaper articles, t.v., Radio, virtually every outreach means we could find. And I think as we sit here today, I think it's safe to say that we pleased most of the people most of the time. We certainly can never put everything in a facility like this that everyone wants and meet the budget. What we're going to go through today is a presentation of the facility concept for the entire master plan that includes all the components that were derived from both the bond language, the Texas park and wildlife grant application, and the community input that we received. We're going to close it with a recommended master of the recommended phase 1 allocation, the budget for which is still in flux, and I'm sure joe will go over that at some length after my presentation. As all of you know, the property is only 5 or 10 minutes southeast of manor, about 261 acres. North is up on this plan. The frontage along blake manor and burleson manor encompasses about half of the park, so we've got the opportunity to get into the park several different ways. What we essentially found in our site analysis is that there are two open field areas. This area is largely open as if it had once been farmed. And this area is largely open. The treated area you see down -- treed area you see down here is pretty much what exists. There's a natural height spot on the property about right in here that's also a high spot for much of the surrounding area. So it's kind of a promitory, if you will. The vegetation is more sparse than down here. There's actually flood plain in the far reach of the south end of the property. There are about half a dozen creeks that flow generally off site and on site down to that area. They are all wet-weather creeks. There's no water in them on a normal occurring basis. The three ponds that are on here are all man-made stock ponds from three or four acres down to about an acre. And the larger pond is by far the most picturesque right now. I think partly that's because you can see it from the hilltop here. What we did in going through the arrangement of the elements in the park was to try to focalize the large athletics fields where there was the least amount of clearing. The objective here is not only to provide a high degree of athletic organized field, competitive venues, but also to have a lot of park activities that would maybe normally not be found in a county park. One of the goals that we are -- that we were given by the park staff was to try to think about this park in a way where we could increase the initial and return visitorship to a county park so that you get sort of more use for the dollar. So we've kept -- we've been mindful of that in both the programming and the design. We really left the site sort of -- tell us where things ought to go and as you will see in the rest of the preparation, we focalized a lot of activity around these existing ponds. So we've generally got two zones or three zones, a baseball zone up here, soccer zone here, sort of an active and passive park zone here. And this area has been set aside mostly for nature trails and primitive trails and so forth that would come into play should the Texas park and wildlife grant come through. These are some enlarged plans I want to go through of each of those sort of lake areas. We've named some of these to kind of give some member rablt to them. This is called kingfisher lake just because it's the biggest of the three ponds. The existing dam is on the downhill side here. The spillways are there and there. As I said, if we were to fill this to within a couple feet of the spillway, we would probably have approaching four acres because it's 400 feet this way and 400, 500 feet up that way. These are the sketches.
>> now, that is a little pier that projects out there, that kingfisher lake.
>> I'm sorry, sir?
>> that is a little pier that projects out there?
>> yes. We're going to go through all those facilities. This is an aerial perspective looking at the lake. And what we've put around this lake are basically three different facilities. One of the things in the long range master plan program was a meeting facility. We've placed that on the north shore, if will you, coming out with a deck on to the lake. This is a -- kind of a natural bow that already exists or natural hillside sloping down to the pond, so we've shaped that for a grass amphitheater and a deck which could eventually be turned into a stage, and a fishing pier or boat dock combination over here with a little boat house. The idea is we would have row boats, paddleboats, mostly for kids to use. And this would also serve for the kid fishing program that the county has been successful in in the past. This is an aerial view. This is sort of a zoom-in on the bow that the amphitheater, if you are looking up here back down toward the pond. These could eventually be restroom buildings should the amphitheater be successful enough to be some sort of a semi-permanent activity for symphony or whatever. By the way, this is sized to be mostly what would be called an aaccuse stick venue. You know, soft rock, classical music, that sort of thing. This is a sketch of the meeting facility, and the idea is basically to be like a pole barn that's been remodeled for meeting. It's an open-air facility. These elements on the side can lift up or be down if you need a little more acoustic or weather control. It's not a conditioned space, it's sort of a pavilion, if you will, that can be kind of closed down in three different ways. This is what one of the interspaces like -- intear your spaces might look like. That's about a 30 by 30 room. You could probably seat 75 to 100 people in there for a barbecue or a dinner of some kind. You could probably seat about 100 people in a gallery setting like this. So our idea was it would accommodate anything from neighborhood meetings to athletic league meetings to community socials, family reunions, whatever. It might be leased, it might be free. That's up to you all. This is a view as if you are looking -- if you are at the back of the building looking toward the pond, and it's just a wood deck that extends out to the pond so it sort of extends the outdoor usability of this in good weather. And some sort of a fire pit out there that would allow you to use this in fall or even winter evenings. The next area is a tadpole pond. This area is a baseball complex. It is intended to serve not only people that are coming to the park just to picnic and play and recollect reate, but also it's located close enough to the baseball complex if there was a significant tournament going on, these facilities could serve the people in that sort of time gap where you have to wait for another game but you don't have time to leave. Or when you find yourself with one family member on the field and two that aren't on the field but you have to do something with them. We heard a lot from the users groups, particularly softball -- or particularly baseball and soccer that we need playgrounds and things near the fields to accommodate that activity. This is an aerial view of this pond looking north toward the baseball fields, and the idea is simply to have a little deck or dock out at the edge of the lake, what we call a splash park here, which is really a jetted water that let's kids cool off and splash in the water. A conventional playground, swings and so forth here. Parking. But this appears to relate to the pond. So you could imagine that the water is coming out of the lake going through here and running back down and entering the lake -- or the pond even though physically that won't happen because this has to be filtered and chlorinated and so forth. The next pond is bullfrog pond down this the southwest area right off the knoll or the high point. This is a conglomeration of court games and volleyball. If the grant came through, this would also be tennis, probably a skateboard park and multi-use courts, which might look like this. So this is an aerial view looking across the pond at a covered basketball court that's large enough to either play two half-court games or one full-court game. It's also covered to allow for crafts, kids activities, things that you need a big surface and be out of the weather basically. This is just another place to interface with the pond. This could be another kid fish opportunity. And back in the far side here is a restroom that serves this area. Each of these facilities has a restroom that's size to do the use in that area. So this is what we call sort of a medium-sized restroom. At the tadpole pond, it would be a small restroom. Neither of these have concessions. The next area, this is what a baseball field concession area right look like. What we struggle with with baseball is getting scorekeepers and handicapped people to concession stands and also having bleachers and everything mixed in there. So one idea we came up with is to -- and we're moving a lot of dirt out here anyway to build these fields. There's a cut across this field which would be five or six feet, so our idea would be to ramp up the earth to the concession area, which is what you are seeing here, you are walking up basically one level above the field. The bleachers are build into that cut, which I'm sure you've seen this done before. And that puts the concessions and the scorekeepers all on one level so the handicapped ramps are sort of done away with in that they are these long sloped walks up to that center point. There's a small concession stand over here. These are four little league fields. Three senior pony league and adult fields. They would have a larger concession stand. And that concession stand idea also translates over to the soccer area. These are combined football-soccer fields so they can switch play. They have a small concession stand and restroom. Four large soccer fields with two practice fields has a larger concession stand. And the other items that aren't in the bond at this point but are in the master plan, this is the maintenance facility. It's sort of over in the edge of the woods away from the road where you could have a direct access off of the county road into the maintenance facility gated off to kind of keep it secure back there. With regard to the water supply, if we were to pursue a deal with the local water supply company that required an on-site pumping and chlorination station, we've suggested locating that near the maintenance facility as well so it's all sort of contained back there where the backhouse operations are. Our phase 1 recommendation which has to be considered a soft one at this point because of the complexity of the swimming pool being potentially added to the program and how much money there is to cover all these facilities, I think this is the last page in your book, and what we're essentially saying is do four baseball fields, three youth, one senior league, two large soccer fields, the two football fields, let one concession stand handle those in the phase 1 area and their attendant parking, landscape, roads and so forth. Do the multi-use court, an open basketball court, which is obviously just a slap on grade with hoops. Restroom, playground. And over in this area basically just do trails and develop this knoll as kind of an open greenspace for open play. And this playground complex that is near the baseball fields. We've also shown an information kiosk at the entry for visitor orientation. And that's loosely the limits of the phase 1 construction. As I said, that will be influenced by weather the grant comes through, whether there's a swimming pool added and so forth. I would be glad to answer any questions that you have, and if not turn it over to joe. [one moment, please, for change in captioners]
>> because maintenance of a park is a big deal. And to date I don't know that we have a mechanism to where we charge for lighting per use. Youth programs are not charged, I don't think. And that is something that I think that we're probably going to have to look at. When you look at the city facilities, when you use lights, you're charged on that light bill. Most youth programs aren't charged for the facilities.
>> that's going to be a discussion item this item. This afternoon.
>> what?
>> [inaudible - no mic].
>> would you envision the ponds being used at all under any sort of irrigation?
>> yes, each one of them. We did a fairly extensive irrigation water source study, and the first thing we looked at is is there enough wawrd to build a rez wear in the south part of the property and irrigate from one area. Unfortunately, there's not. There's not enough up land flow to keep that reservoir full enough. So we went back to using these three ponds of raw water. And this one would primarily irrigate this area and this would hit the center and the soccer fields. So they're all three being utilized. That will keep the water level constant, which will make them better aesthetic ponds as well.
>> and I would suggest when you look at especially like the soccer layout, I know that that's the first phase, the difference between the one point to the farthest point there you have a lot of linear foot there. Putting athletic fields in linear layouts versus putting them in more of a square. Because what you want to do is get the restrooms central and the concessions, because conceivably if you were to really get something going in a facility like this, concessions would be a big deal. And a lot of municipal layout you see sort of the spread out of these things. It's sort of aesthetically nice, but, you know, if you're at field 9 and you've got to use the restroom or if you want to go get -- [ laughter ] you do have the opportunity to really synergize some really good concession sales. Down if that area if there's any area to do more of a square versus a rec tank cue lar buildout like on your full buildout plan. Like you said, I mean, topography might inhibit that somewhat.
>> that's the idea. When these five fields or six fields come on, including the practice, there would be a large concession that would serve that centrally. We decided from a budget standpoint that this was probably central enough to those four to get by in phase 1, but ultimately you have one concession there and one for the football up here.
>> yeah. The two concessions is what is going to make a lot of sense because you don't have enough in any one particular area to entice somebody to be your concessionaire.
>> one things the leagues told us is that's a revenue source for them so they want to literally take the concession stand over their during games, sell the goods and make the money off of it. And that's kind of what led the design to ha more or less a concession that addressed football because they're a user group that might be out there while soccer is going on as well. And the reason for two concessions up here was just a rather small one, with restrooms centrally located in the youth feels and a larger one with the adult and senior fields, we were given advice from the park staff that sometimes those are incompatible groups just because of the age difference and what -- the adult and senior youth leagues might be doing. So we made two concession areas accordingly.
>> do we have any county parks that you serve alcohol?
>> they do by permit. They have to get a permit, tabc.
>> because you're right, the incompatibility if you're the adult diamond is there next to that youth group, you know, there's going to be something that would would need to be a consideration.
>> is that sometimes a scheduling issue? I know capital metro related to the adult leagues on soccer, they use it on a different day than the greater Austin soccer coalition and the citd dose. You're right about the concessions and the bathrooms, however it is all about bathrooms. Roy and charles and I just got back from greeensboro, north carolina and they'll be hosting the youth tournament. We will have 192 teams out there. If I learned anything at that time we spent there, it is all about bathrooms. I'm amazed at how many people brut their own food. They really weren't focused on food. They brought their own a lot of times because they are travelling caravans in terms of the teams, consideration, but bathrooms are a way that deal in the placement thereof and maintenance there of.
>> the only thing that I have to say about looking down the future or looking into the future for parks is that I think we're going to have to either find a way to get more out of fees or we're going to have to find a way to recoup some expenses in parks. And the way to recoup expenses is through concessions because I will tell you that if you don't have concessions, bathrooms aren't as big a deal. [ laughter ] if you allow somebody to stop by h.e.b. And bring in about $200' worth of stuff, which is basically what happens in these kind of parks, then between bathrooms, garbage cans, those are huge issues. But I'm looking down the road to see how we might be able to recoup some of these things. And I know that this is policywise, but with regards to how do we really recoup some of the expenses? Because these things -- a park is an incredible, ongoing expense if you're really going to keep it up and you're going to keep it nice.
>> I'm looking forward to looking at it and addressing that as far as fees to maybe offset some of the expenses. I think you brought up some very good points. Let me ask this question. The footprint as far as the swimming pool is concerned and, of course, my contention that we, of course, leave the footprint in as is as far as the master plan is concerned. Of course, there will be a phasing as we get to all of these things, including the swimming pool aspect. And I know we have looked at -- I received some information from the city of Austin staff and downloaded some stuff off the website, and who emphasis. One was that the city of Austin park usage is tremendous. I had no idea that the city parks were being utilized so much. In fact, there was -- according to sources, there was a television show, newscast or whatever, that parents are suggesting hours for park use, for swimming pool use after the regular kids go back to school in August, for those particular children that aren't going to regular school, they would like to have those hours set aside for swimming pool use. So it is a big demand, it appears, for the city parks. , swimming pool aspect. Also as far as some of the areas that I looked at and have done some research, my staff, to look at was the element of safety. Because every once in awhile we hear of drownings that take place, especially in the lake areas, but within the confines of the city swimming pools, we found that there's only been one drowning in the past 10 years in the city swimming pools, which is quite phenomenal as far as safety is concerned. So again, looking at those two aspects, a swimming pool is something that I would like to continue to pursue as far as having the footprint be maintained in the master plan and hoping we get to a final situation. We have been working with the private sector and, of course, I think there's a exi imi nation of a few things that we want to see because what we heard out there in dealing with the public was that, of course, a swimming pool I think ranked pretty high of all the surveys that was conducted. I think it ranked somewhere in the top three with these surveys that were conducted. But to make a long story short, the concern of having now is looking at where we can go in the future as far as looking at the operation and maintenance of a swimming pool. And i'd like staff, if you can probably tell me this, because that is one of the high profile concerns that's within this particular master plan, east central master plan is how we're going to deal with a swimming pool. I'd like to hear what staff has to say as far as the recommendations on that.
>> if I could make a couple of comments just about swimming pools that I think addressed two of your concerns.
>> thank you.
>> we're doing a pool for kyle right now, the city of kyle. And we did a study for them or a quick analysis for them early on and said there are two fee base basis that you can look at on a pool. One is charging enough to cover your end costs and the other to charge more than that to build up some more revenue for other uses, to either pay for debt service or whatever. And we found that it was -- it wasn't a huge jump, something like a dollar and a quarter a head, to cover o and m costs on a junior olympic pool, assuming a fairly heavy use, like three to -- three or four hundred people a day. But if you kick that up to about two dollars, you could actually start building a revenue fund either for replacement or to retire additional debt. And their question really was if we build a basic pool, we don't think we'll do as much business as we build a pool with a lot of add-ons, water slides, spray parts and so forth. So I think if you get into the user fee analysis, which I understand you're going to do, the pool is one place where people typically pay for better experience, and that might either allow you to build a better pool or even create funds to maintain something else in the park. The last things that we did put the footprint of the pool right up here, and I'm sorry I didn't point that out, we -- at this point we just assumed a junior olympic pool, sort of like you would do in a large neighborhood or a large planned unit development, and that's certainly subject to programming and debate about what the users would want in that kind of a pool. That's probably about as big a footprint as you would ever do, so we just wanted to cover the basis.
>> but what's the situation with the pool in the master plan we're asked to approve today?
>> do you want to take that one? [ laughter ]
>> uh-oh, they're leaving the table.
>> all right. The pool presents both an opportunity and an issue. We did not originally include a swimming pool in our bond program, so the bond authorization is seven million dollars that we have to implement this park and it did not originally include a swimming pool. We have certain bond covenants that we need to look into before we look at additional activities, which is a swimming pool. With that said, we have a local developer, in association with milburn homes, who has come forward and offered to spend $375,000 toward a construction of a swimming pool in this park. We do not believe that $375,000 is sufficient in and of itself to build a swimming pool that would meet the standards that we would want in a metropolitan park, for one thing, and a public park for another. They were basing their contribution on a bill milburn subdivision pool. That's kind of what they had in mind for the look and feel of that swimming pool. We're not going to sneeze at a 375,000-dollar donation.
>> no, there's not a short answer.
>> we're asked today to approve a master plan, right? So where is the pool in the master plan, or is it in there?
>> the pool is physically located in the master plan. There's plenty of room for it. There is no money for it in the current budget.
>> okay. So the answer is that we have left space available for a pool in the event that it materializes in the future.
>> yes, sir.
>> now, I have taken advantage of every opportunity to vote against the pool, swimming pool, the 14 years i've been part of the Commissioners court. I was told 14 or 15 years ago that there were such serious potential liability issues that the county should shy away from the swimming pools. Then an -- as a creative individual, I am willing to consider all onions that I have. It seems to me that we ought to address the swimming pool issue in a major way as a court some time soon. And if the swimming pool is not in the master plan, in my view that's perfect. But if we plan to consider a swimming pool at some point in the future, then it seems to me that as a court we ought to seriously look at the issue. If we build a intiming pool in the east metro park, at some point we will be asked to put swimming pools in other county parks. So there are two issues. One is potential legal liability. And the second one is as a matter of policy and practice of Travis County, what's our position on swimming pools? Now, I'm thinking that the different lakes that we manage for the lcra are not the same as swimming pools, although people swim there. They generate serious problems for us. And for some reason or another, a lot of people think that you really should not swim unless you have been drinking. [ laughter ] the liability, the liability issue is really a real big one as well as funding. Now, when I first saw a memo setting fourth the proposal -- forth the proposal for hours, and I concluded based on the wording that we would be able to transfer the pool, the funding issues, the operation and the liability to the ymca or somebody else. And if that is so, it deals with my concerns. Now, the particular liability -- the potential liability issue is a big deal. I don't see the ymca or others operating a pool for us and us still having liability.
>> I would think that would be a question for your legal counsel since it's on your property, but I share your concern obviously.
>> if a swimming pool is not in here, we can deal with that later, but I think we need to address it. And we need serious pros and cons that the whole court can look at at some point before we take final action on this. To the extent that others are willing to assume responsibility for operating the pool and accepting liability, the better I feel about it.
>> and judge -- [ inaudible ].
>> I'm done. For now.
>> I think I agree with you that I think the whole court needs to address the swimming pool issue because when we were first working on the southeast metro park, the idea did come up that people wanted a pool, but they wanted an olympic size pool. Now, at that point I kind of took comments and I kind of let it lay there to see because we did need to discuss it as a court. Yeah, I think if we have a pool here, I think there's going to be a call for pools in other areas. So I think it's something -- an issue that we need to discuss before we go into that area.
>> and my position is that i'd like to leave it in the master plan as a footprint, looking at the other issues that have been brought up and that we address those when deemed possible to address. I think as far as the footprint is concerned, it needs to remain in the master plan. There is -- I think we're right around the corner as far as resolving some of these issues that have been brought up, and I do mean right around the corner. So for that reason i'd like to leave the footprint in the master plan until those particular questions have been addressed accordingly.
>> I don't hear anybody recommending that we take the space.
>> no.
>> right, but I wanted to point -- I'm not saying that nobody did. I just wanted to point it out to make sure that we clearly -- because there may be some ambiguity that the master plan is going to be looked at without the footprint of the pool. And that's what I don't want to see happen.
>> I don't think there's any ambiguity on that. Nobody has a question. The swimming pool is a big deal. It's always been one. We have looked at it several times and always landed against it. If there are reasons why we should reverse our position as a court, then I think it requires a serious review as well as looking at long-term implications. So it's a much bigger deal than a swimming pool at the east metro park in my view. My other point is that there are three ponds on this acreage, and we're convinced that either nature will keep them filled with water or we will be able to do that ourselves.
>> yes, sir.
>> because when I look at the plan, everything is sort of geared to the three bodies of water. I remember the golf course out near jimmy clay with the water on 13 or 14 holes. It was a beautiful design and it was a beautiful golf course for the first three or four months. The first time it got hot the water dried up and it really was a different course. And I never understood why, but it took about a year and a half, two years for them to fix that. And two or three lawsuits. And my point is the three bodies of water look real good. Most of the structures that we are building, most of the activities that we are planning for, are sort of around the water.
>> yes, sir.
>> so we are depending on water being in those ponds year-round?
>> yes, sir. We have to keep those full to pump water out of them to irrigate the fields and the other grass areas. And it takes really all three of them to do that. And the way we're doing that is by having a minimal draw down, meaning we're not going to pump one lake down to three or four feet, we'll draw them all down a foot, foot and a half regularly and we will actually have to be refilled every day either from the raw water line from manville or the raw water wells.
>> that was a similar strategy we have out at northeast metro in terms of the water coming from the wastewater treatment goes into the ponding area and it's really a distribution point. It's just a fancy way of doing a distribution system. It's been very successful and we've never had a dry lake out there related to it fills back up. It's a very clever way of doing irrigation.
>> what's the recommendation on the perimeter equestrian trial?
>> there is a trail. It can be either for horse s horses or jogging, whatever the court's will is?
>> what's the recommendation in this master plan before us today?
>> we would recommend that if we have equestrians, that it be local only to minimize the impact that the horses would have on the park. We are not trying to make this into a destination park that draws equestrians and the county. If people in this area have horses and they would like to ride the horse to the park and around the park, that's what we're trying to accommodate with the equestrian trail. So to answer your question, it is in the master plan, but it is a low profile use of the park.
>> joe, have you finished up?
>> yes, sir.
>> joe, I know the community is going to be getting in touch with you or one of us pretty soon. And back to this swimming pool issue. How long do you think it will probably be before you come back to the court with some of the questions that were posed before us today regarding these swimming pools as far as looking for a finalization on all this stuff? How much time do you think it would probably need to take?
>> you have my memo. It just got passed out. If you would like to read that and reconsider it next week, then we can bring additional information.
>> now, I will be out of the office next week.
>> when will you have the funding, liability, other issues that we need to consider this issue properly?
>> you have options laid out in the memorandum. I have generally discussed this with the county attorney's office. I think probably within a week or so they can give me some additional guidance with regard to the legal issues, including --
>> when will the money be ready? When can we expect delivery?
>> the money issue -- 375 is on the table. It's not enough.
>> what's enough?
>> at least 500. Probably more. You're short -- and that's just the swimming pool. Ultimately this gets down to a trade-off. If you're going to do the swimming pool, even with the private contributions, you're going to have to back off some of the items that you otherwise programmed in the park. You can't have both.
>> on the bond side or the grant side? Because those are two very different things.
>> bond.
>> bond.
>> do we have a -- [ inaudible ].
>> I'm not sure we can do both. It does mean, though, that where we had a restroom, the restroom might be pushed over in the parking lot, for instance. We have parking lots. The parking lots might be serving the pool, though. So in some way it's a reorientation to serve the pool as opposed to perhaps some of the other features in the park.
>> are you leaving space for the pool in such a way that we should not develop the other parts of the master plan until we have made a final decision on the pool?
>> no. It's in a position that doesn't conflict with any other program element. If it's not there, that's just a blank spot on the site, so that decision would be made tomorrow or next year or next decade and still put the pool on the master plan that we've shown it.
>> I don't know that there's any rush unless somebody comes up with five or six hundred thousand dollars. If it takes half a million dollars to get this done at a minimum and we're $125,000 short and then somebody ought to spend a little bit on it. The other thing is what would it cost to operate once constructed and where would that money come from?
>> my recommendation -- we have three options. What we would look to is having the ymca operate and maintain the pool based on a subscription service that the county would not be involved in either setting the fees, collecting the fees or managing the facility. We don't have the experience to do that. We would strongly recommend to the court that you employ an entity like the ymca, who knows this business. They know how to certify life guards, certify pool operators. They know what it takes to run and operate a pool. We're not suggesting that the county get into the pool business, we're suggesting a partnership that would have the private sector, primarily build the pool, the ymca operate it and maintain it, and the county provide the land and the adjoining park facility that would support the pool.
>> joe, is that similar to what Williamson county is doing with the ymca? How is it similar, how is it different? Because they've got a partnership up there as well?
>> their partnership by and large is the ymca went in and purchased a piece of property right next to the park, and so it's a ymca facility, totally separate from the park. But it's next to the park.
>> how long would it take you to reach that agreement with the ymca?
>> I would say we could probably have a basic agreement probably by the middle of August if we're going to have one.
>> you're working on it?
>> i'd probably need some direction from the court to continue to work on this, if it's not in the interest of the court to do so.
>> well, on two on or three issues we're clear. The ymca is willing to take responsibility for the swimming pool and they also, I assume, are used to taking liability for it also forhe multiple pools in this area and then my concerns are gone. That simplifies it. But that depend on the ymca's position as well as ours. It seems to me that the time is best spent, though, negotiating with the ymca trying to cut the best deal possible, coming back to us and ascertaining where the majority of us can support it.
>> joe, one thing -- we talked about money. I don't know why I haven't asked you this question before. In all of our discussions on 1445 of consolidation of city and county codes and be it whatever city, one of the things that we've got as a new tool is parkland dedication which had to do with either you dedicate land for park use or those dollars in lieu of that go into the nearest metropolitan park. Well, where are we on that and how might this park, southeast, northeast, benefit from dollars coming in from the subdivisions that absolutely are coming out there, out in the e.t.j., How they may or may not apply in terms of trying to get more capital funds going into developing these parks outside what we're getting through the bond money?
>> number one, you've got knot yet adopted the ordinance that includes the parkland dedication. Hopefully that will be on the agenda some time soon. That will enable you to participate with the city the parkland dedication. My understanding of that ordinance is it's land first, and only then can you go for fees in lieu of. And those will go into capital improvements, not o and m.
>> right. But you're short of capital funds to do this swimming pool, and I thought we had done the consolidation of things we agreed on with the city of Austin. I wasn't aware that we had to go back in and do something separate related to parkland dedication, but we have have that discussion at another point. But there are a lot of subdivisions that the land is ever so precious and they don't want to give up any land within their subdivision, and the city has a long history of folks who want to utilize in lieu of because they just have too small of a subdivision, they don't want to give up any of their land. That would work to our advantage.
>> there are some opportunities, additional capital contributions from surrounding developers.
>> how soon can we get the parkland assigned here because I thought we had done that when we did all of our 1445, close it out, other than transportation. I thought we closed it out. If that's not the case, i'd like to see this parkland dedication get back here.
>> we have to go through the 30-day posting, but that's up now, so it should be on the agenda next week or week after.
>> because that could get us capital to go into this project. O and m is a separate discussion, but I would love to see partnerships going on with like the ym crsm a. My hesitation is not a discussion related to pools, but it is that is there even the ability to put life guards out at Lake Travis because of the situation out there? And I'm convinced the answer to that is no, but this is a very confined space and by having things like hello, you cannot drink within the confines of this, I think that that's something that could be part of the city of Austin's record committed to safety at their municipal swimming pools speaks very highly to the fact that these kind of things are absolutely possible. I think it's a good idea to have the footprint with the pool.
>> thank you. And again, the ymca has a real good reputation of bringing in and teaching persons how to swim. We were talking about kid, little children that learn from an early age, so in my mind the pool in itself will have to have children or amenities whereby they could come up, along with the other size pool there, in con discussion that they are serving two purposes. Once with children, which the ymca again, has had a significant track record as far as teaching children how to swim in this community. So it's a big deal.
>> Commissioner Daugherty?
>> I know we've spent more time on this subject --
>> [inaudible - no mic].
>> I know we've spent more time on this subject than we thought we were going to, but I think the this says it. A swimming pool depending on the size of amenities can have ongoing construction and maintenance cost. The biggest point that we have here is that if you do something here, get ready for all the other areas to want a swimming pool, which I think is huge. And I think that if somebody wants to walk away from a contract, if they find that this thing is not covering its expenses, then we will be the one stuck with this. But I'm willing to look it it and maybe to cut some costs perhaps each of us can take a day and don a favorite speedo of ours and act as life guards. Commissioner, which night would you like to take? [ laughter ]
>> on a rotating basis.
>> Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday?
>> there's one other partner that we ought not be overlooking during this time period to try and get other partnerships involved here. That is, i've heard from more school districts about the need for their swim teams to have facilities. They are extraordinarily short. They've been having to use private facilities. I think there's also the possibility of bringing in the manor school district, the Pflugerville school district, the Round Rock school district, and the Austin school district and just see again partnerships, sharing of liability, for us shifting of liability, but it seems like there's more need than what we've talked about today relating to school team and the need related to uil programming.
>> what's been happening, a lot of the residents in that area have been going to -- as far as bastrop and also elgin to satisfy their swimming needs and activities for the area. So I'm not going to be -- i'd like to move approval of the master plan as presented before us and then direct staff to continue to negotiate with the ymca and others that have been mentioned, the school district, anybody else as far as local partnerships, even revisit the 1445 deal, which is parkland dedication. All of these things we'll come back before the Commissioners court, as soon as you can have this information before us, joe, time framewise with that particular motion. Could I get a second?
>> i'd be happy to second it.
>> if you could give us your name, ma'am?
>> [inaudible - no mic]. I'm with the Texas the Texas parks and wildlife, can't we get money from them to go in on this pool with us? Does anybody know anything about that?
>> the backup makes reference to several possibilities. We will pursue every funding option.
>> okay.
>> that will simplify it, I think. Anything further? Yes, sir?
>> i'd like to -- i'll reintroduce myself. I'm henry trail with the park springs neighborhood association. I want to commend the court for taking an open minded view of a swimming pool in particular. I want to commend you for giving us this opportunity to have a park in our neighborhood. I want to thank Commissioner Davis in particular, the design team and the county staff for giving usthe opportunity to make input and to demonstrate our concern and our needs out there. I think it is wonderful that you've come up with a creative approach for funding and operating a swimming pool. I recognize the costs -- the initial costs are only the beginning in the operation of a swimming pool. You do have operating and maintenance costs and you do have a liability, but I think the approach that's been taken here is a good one, and I think, judge and mr. Daugherty have proper concerns, but I think if you take this approach, that is, getting private funding and maybe a private operator, and adopting that as your policy for funding and operating swimming pools in the county's parks, you're on the right track and I commend you for that. Thank you again.
>> thank you.
>> my name is reginald turner. I'm actually going to have a question or clarification question in two capacities. I am the field director for the manor youth football association, so my question and need for clarification would be on the legend, on the existing bond-funded items, on number 14 you talked about the -- you call it multipurpose fields. 13 and 14 are both listed as multipurpose fields. If I could get some clarification. Is there going to be one football field, one lighted -- one soccer field that's on the lighted portion as item 13 and one of each on item 14 that is not lighted?
>> that could be either soccer or football on 13. 14 you can see are the larger fields. They're primarily intended for soccer, but the reason we called them multi-use is because you could play football on them as well, but the 13's are specifically intended to be dual purpose.
>> okay. Because soccer fields are larger fields.
>> yes.
>> are they going to be -- how are you going to handle the lining of the field so that they distinguish that it's time to play football, it's time to play soccer?
>> can you help me out, carl?
>> the lining issues are handled through reservation. We'll know in advance what organizations are planning to use the facility, and from that our staff will schedule and line it according to that.
>> you could potentially end up relining these fields every week.
>> could, but youth football and I'm involved in youth football also. And just because of the number of refuse reez they have in the area, they rarely will have more than two fields going at one time. And because of that, that's why we opted for that. Now, if you had kind of a regional playoff, we could host it there provided you had --
>> that was my concern is that in the event we're going to have to have the use for either one, whether it's the football organization or a soccer organization, that you've got dedicated facilities to be able to handle that. And then the next part goes to item 9, which is the basketball courts. In that capacity I'm the president of the manor area youth basketball association as well.
>> my goodness. [ laughter ]
>> do you have a different hat? [ laughter ]
>> my question on that would be I know in the master plan you used them -- it's a wonderful facility, a covered facility. But I also hear you say that that's also going to perform a dual purpose as arts and crafts based type of arena. Are we -- is there another -- I heard you saying slab. So that would then essentially form the second basketball court in case there are arts and crafts going on?
>> there are two courts, one covered, one uncovered.
>> then that covers it for me. I'm concerned with, I would think it would be a lot easier, looking at how you've got this set up here, at items 13 and item 14, if 13's were dedicated or one 13 was football and one 13 was soccer, considering that's where the lighted portions of the field are. And then the other two fields below. And I notice that there are two more below that and then two practice fields, but those aren't in the phase 1.
>> right.
>> so I'm saying it would easier if you split the field, one lighted football field, one lighted soccer field. That way you don't spend as much time trying to run around lying trying to line these fields in the event you've got a change of venue from work to week.
>> the problem we have with that is that soccer is pretty much a year-round activity and football is in the fall. When the football season is over, these will go over to soccer and we can get more use on them.
>> I respect your input there from saying that these are anything from other than multipurpose fields. Because when you say something is soccer, then is what are you doing on my field? I'm going to say these are multipurpose fields and depending on the single use they will be football sometimes and soccer sometimes.
>> could be frisbee.
>> and I find that the use of a dedicated word actually creates more problems than it -- and actually spanish football is soccer.
>> anybody else with comments please come forward. Any more discussion of the motion?
>> I just have one question for clarification. Did you say that if we put in the pool that it takes from the other activities?
>> no. The other of the pool is in, if the pool isn't built, will be an open field. But if you include the pool in the budget, it will definitely take away other items in the budget.
>> I understand.
>> I'm not going there yet. I'm staying very focused and the issue is master plan, footprint, a planning document.
>> all in favor of the motion? That passes by unanimous vote. Thank you very much. We appreciate your input.
Last Modified: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 1:52 PM