Travis County Commssioners Court
March 11, 2003
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Item 2
Number two, discuss intermittent temporary road closure to through traffic on blake manor road between fm 9 east and taylor lane in precinct 1 for the duration of the blake manor road and drainage improvement construction project lasting until pl from March 2003 to December 2003. Move that the public hearing be open. All in favor? That passes by unanimous vote.
>> good morning. Joe gieselman with the transportation and natural resource department and [ inaudible ], who is the project engineer. We're asking for a temperature closure of blake manor road from the city limits -- actually, 973 to taylor lane to through traffic. The road will be open to access properties on either side of blake manor, but through traffic is asked to detour using lockwood road and parsons road, kim road and then 290. So the detour route would be this way, kimbro and 290 and around. There will be times a few days where blake manor road will be closed entirely for the installation of a box culvert, but those should be in days and not multiple days. So for the most part people who live along this road can get in and out of their property even while construction is going on. And letting road will also be under construction, but this section of leading road will be -- letting road will be open at all times so detour traffic can get through. The parsons road is -- will be repaved next week. It was reconstructed last fall, and we put a treatment on the road just to hold it for the winter. We've got to go back next week and put on an inch and a half of hot mix overlay to finish it up. So that was -- that will detour traffic. There is one issue, at least, and that is we have the will larger creek that passes over parsons road that is subject to flooding when they are heavy rains. So the detour route could be closed when under floding conditions. Our contractors are on notice that if this road closes for any reason, it will permit through traffic on the construction route.
>> blake manor?
>> blake manor, yes. So people have a way to get in and out in the event that parsons is not available.
>> joe, on that -- especially the parsons road deal, especially where that low water crossing is, the approach to that low water crossing, there was some work that needed to be done and as you approach that low water crossing in this new resurfacing, will that be taken care of also on parsons road?
>> the floodplain area will be subject to flooding no matter what we do.
>> I understand that.
>> we will pave the portion that was reconstructed. The problem with paving anything in the floodplain is that it's likely to be scoured after every flood, which means the crews will have to go back and repave almost after every flooding because no matter what we do, the power of that flood water will scrape off pretty much anything you put into it. We know there needs to be a bridge on parsons road, and basically that is a very costly endeavor. And perhaps the next bond program we will ask the court to put a bridge in the bond program for parsons road, but it's a very wide floodplain, and the bridge will be fairly expensive.
>> do we have any guesstimate as far as the volume of traffic that we probably end -- will probably end up using this detour, that will be using the blake manor?
>> I would say several hundred cars a day.
>> several hundred cars a day?
>> I'm sure, yes. People currently using blake manor, and they don't divert before they get to taylor lane, will no doubt use parsons. We're hoping that some of the traffic from further back in eastern Travis County will divert to 969 and 290 before they even come in to blake manor. The signage when we pushed it all the way back at manor and 969 and jones road, so we capture the traffic before they get to this point.
>> and we have a couple of persons that came last week, I guess, and spoke on some stuff, and I guess they have been notified that we are going to actually address -- that was one of the questions as far as the parsons road improvement as far as what you're going to do. And I guess they will satisfy that and that will be started, I guess, what, next week?
>> the other thing that we're -- there are some concerns about was the intersection of 290 and kimbro. And I have rick vetter, district engineer, bill car lote and his traffic engineer, they have responded and said they will work with the county in reducing speeds on 290 and make that a safer intersection during our construction.
>> so all the work is simultaneous as far as all -- [ inaudible ] and the resurfacing and detour, that safety issue on 290 and kimbro will be addressed?
>> yes, we will work with txdot.
>> okay.
>> do I see the detour option that you selected? What other options do we have?
>> not many. There's very few roads in had this area. This is very much -- you can go down taylor lane and go to 969. That's another route. For anyone coming to this point, you can go north on parsons or south on taylor to get around blake manor. There's really about two ways to do it.
>> [inaudible - no mic].
>> probably about five miles.
>> no, more than that.
>> do we have public hearings? Did we have public meetings before today?
>> we went out and visited with the neighborhood in this area. And the choice was do we do these roads simultaneously or stagger them? And I think the preference we heard at that meeting was go ahead and do it and get it done.
>> okay. Anything else before we listen to residents?
>> I think that's it.
>> okay. If we can get you to move over one seat. We have four seats available. For those who wish to give testimony during this public hearing, please come forward. If you will give us your name, we'll be happy to get your comments. Maybe we ought to have three seats available. And as you finish, if you would return to your seat in the audience, we'll give another resident an opportunity to come forward and give comments. Good morning.
>> good morning. My name is scott sternman. I live in pu of oma. It's a church community on blake manor road just past burleson manor road, which is further down from where this construction is by about two miles. I have three different things i'd like to offer. First, I think that the estimate of a couple hundred cars a day is a minimal estimate. There is a lot more traffic on that road than I think most of the county is probably aware. Second, there is a large number of semi trailers that drive blake manor road carrying gravel and other types of earth, rocks, that have their businesses on blake manor road or that use that road to access 969 and weberville. Given that fact, the rebuild of parsons road and the intersection at kimbro and 290, how will that be useful in combatting the problems with this semi traffic, especially the intersection of kimbro and 290? Slowing traffic is helpful, yes, but just the fact that slowing traffic is in my opinion not going to be enough to allow a smooth flow of traffic given the quantity of vehicles and the type of vehicles that will be travelling that route. And the third point that I wanted to bring up, right now blake manor road as it exists is tree lined. There are a great many post oaks and other trees lining the road where they have surveyed and placed the flags for the new route, will eliminate 90% of those trees. Now, is there any plan in place to replace those trees or what could be done to save the majority of them because many of them are very, very old. And, you know, part of what makes this a nice place to live is the beauty of the landscape and the natural environment. And so that's a concern of mine.
>> do we know how many trees we'll be taking out?
>> [inaudible - no mic] the trees that you saw -- [ inaudible ] are not going to be taken off. We also have our tree program at the county that depend on the quality of the tree and -- [ inaudible ].
>> do we know about how many trees we will take out.
>> I can't answer that question right now because we're still in the process of examining that.
>> okay. But as part of our tree replacement program is for us to plant as many new trees as we -- as old trees we destroy?
>> it depend on the caliber. The size of the tree and the species of the tree. But when we take one of those trees out, we replace it.
>> okay. So if he's interested in getting specifics, today the answer is we don't know specifically what today that we have in place. When we make the decision can we let mr. Sternman know? And do we have your name and address? We'll do that and let him know. As for the truck traffic on blake manor road, can we do anything to try to minimize that?
>> the truck traffic?
>> yes, sir.
>> we can divert it to taylor lane, if that will help.
>> okay. If trucks use the detour route and the detour route as a result deteriorates faster than we think, it just means that we have to go out more often to try to restore the road, right?
>> yes, that's true, but given a hot mix overlay, I believe the road can withstand even the truck traffic.
>> we committed last week to monitor the detour route and go out and do maintenance work as much as possible. From my old precinct 1 days I recall that residents in that area are good about calling and complaining. Putting us on notice. So if y'all would help us keep up with the need to do further maintenance work, that will help us. There's nothing wrong with complaining, by the way. [ laughter ] thank you.
>> and what about the dealing with the semi traffic at the intersection of kimbro?
>> again, we have initiated discussions with txdot, who control that intersection. And we'll be looking for all sorts of ways to not only reduce speed, but also allow the local traffic to access 290, including the trucks. More so actually school buses.
>> make sure we get your address. Yes, ma'am?
>> my name is vicky and I represent the manor independent school district. [inaudible - no mic] we were with you last week at the public hearing concerning lib by road and -- for the extra emphasis that will be placed on the detour of parsons road. We will certainly appreciate that hot mix be added because we know now with the closing of blake manor that there will be very much more traffic use on parsons when all this let's closed. Letting road is now closed. I noticed that yesterday when I tried to go down it. We also representing manor school district will be writing a letter of endorsement to try to do something about the intersection of kimbro and 290 because we feel like the more word that gets out there to txdot, that will certainly be much more advantageous than all of us. Today we are with you in light of the closing of letting road from 973 to old kimbro. We are requesting that you consider the manor independent school district -- [ inaudible ] the only vehicles that will have through traffic access will be those individuals that live along blake manor road. However, I have asked maureen to do a review of the transportation issue in regard to closing of blake manor to through traffic. Currently we have 13 buses that travel twice a day in the morningings and the afternoons down blake manner. We have eight buses that travel down blake manner wups a day for a total of 34 times a day. Manor independent school buses are driving down manor road. Closing blake manor to school buses is going to cause a hardship to approximately 700 elementary students, secondary students that attend manor middle school, manor high school, in addition to pre-k student that we must go out on blake manor to pick up for our afternoon pre-k setionz, in addition to taking our morning pre-k students home. We're also transporting approximately 50 after school tiewtterial student that go four days a week. So we're looking at approximately 700 students that will be involved with this closing of through traffic. If we would have to divert our school buses off of blake manor road, we are going to be doing major rerouting with some routes adding as much as 30 minutes to our routes. We have a route that is on the farthest edge of the district, which is will barringer estates, that goes out to almost weberville road and 999 that is our longest bus road that uses blake manor road, and they will not be able to. So we're having some difficulties there deciding what we're going to do about tell our children they will have to get on the bus earlier. We may also have to change some start times for our students because like many school districts, we relay on double routes. Our drivers drive elementary routes, they drop off our elementary students and then get the go get the high school and middle school students and they come back into town again. The reroute of blake manor is going to be considerable hardship on our buses and routes and drivers and students. We are asking again that you would consider allowing our school buses to be considered through traffic for blake manor road.
>> let me ask this question. And I think you brought up some real good points. And I guess, joe, at some phase of this construction project on blake manor, there is going to be I guess maybe -- well, as far as school buses or anything like that. There will be an opportunity for -- to allow school buses to come through to serve persons on blake manor road?
>> there will be a few days when the road will be entirely closed. We'll need to coordinate that so it either occurs this summer when school is out of session or on a weekend when there is no school traffic.
>> I need to tell you that we have summer school dates set for June the ninth through July second. That's going to be five days a week.
>> so after July second you don't have any school?
>> yes.
>> okay. Basically what we will do is coordinate the closure with the school district to make sure that we don't interfere. I don't see any issue with allowing the school buses to pass through the construction zone. I would just ask the school district to -- to schedule some additional time. Your speeds will be slower as a result of going through the construction zone, so even though the route may be the shortest route, the time it takes to get through it will be longer because you will be going through a construction zone. So the answer to your question I think is that we can accommodate the buses going through the site, but it still will make a little bit more time for you to use that route.
>> and you know -- you have joe's number, right?
>> yes.
>> so if you need to discuss anything, feel free to call him. Thank you.
>> thank you. Yes, sir?
>> my name is joseph mccree. I live further down blake manor road in the will barger area. I want to -- I won't speak of the hardships of the closure. I think you will hear plenty of that, but I will speak to two items specifically. One, I encourage the engineers to not accept the cheapest bids on this project. We have seen too many times where roads are potholed within the next season and completely redone three to five years later. Secondly, the issue of encouraging you to make sure that there are left and right turn lanes installed near the developments of hamilton's point and briar's creek. Taking experience from when highway 969 had been developed, such as the Austin's colonies that came up near horns by bend, you have -- they were not made to do a right hand pull out lane. You have the situation where highway speed traffic is on the same road with people stopping basically. They come to a near complete stop right there in the highway to get off the road. And you can work with -- even worse for the people coming the other ways. So both those developmentrs on the north side of blake manor road and that would mean having left-hand turn lanes for the people outbound of manor and a right hand turn lane for those outbound. So that highway speed traffic, as was mentioned trucks full of gravel, aren't on the same rain slicked highway with people trying to make a turn into there and waiting for traffic. I do see that there's some intention to straighten out the curve near the briar creek, so that will certainly help there. There is still a hill at that place. So build it good and put in left and right turn lanes near those developments.
>> thank you very much.
>> could I address those requests?
>> go ahead.
>> if there's a real brief response, yes, sir.
>> turn lanes have been designed. We will construct the turn lane at Briarcliff as part of our project. We expect that the city of manor will construct a turn lane in hamilton point when it constructs its portion.
>> yes?
>> thank you, sir. I live right there on blake manor road, right where the little -- that dead-end road right there. No matter how, this is going to be a hassle for me because I will be right in the middle of it.
>> what's your name, please?
>> excuse me, [ inaudible ] white.
>> thank you.
>> we've done this a couple of times before now. We know it solid clay out there. And if they don't make this road wide enough so that it keeps the water from seeping back in underneath it. I know we need to have as many trees out there as possible, but we do need to take into account this. Also truck traffic. Right now we are getting a lot of traffic I think that's coming from 969 and perhaps this is a shortcut. But that heavy truck traffic on just a two-lane road, even though you have a turn lane, is damaging this road almost as quickly as they're repairing it. I mean, we're talking about when they put in the new road, where you go down and you feel like you're on a rollercoaster. This started within months after the last repairs on this. I went to the city on another subject, went to the city of Austin, city of manor meeting the other day, and I described it. They are still hoping to get some funds so that maybe -- maybe from capital metro or something to help out on their portion of it. But the problem is if this is uncoordinated and not working together, we're going to end up with closures at two different times on this same road. And closures are a hassle. That big neighborhood you see just past mine has got -- I just counted yesterday 110 homes already. Let's assume two cars per home. That's 220 one-way trips. They've got to come home too, so that's 440. That neighborhood is not even close -- not even started really. 110 homes is just the beginning of it. There will be do you believe that within the next month. There will be quad driewp pell that number of homes probably within the year. We're talking about 500 trips and bus trips just there. So I was wondering has anybody done a counter on the road to see what the true traffic is. Also, is there any way to eventually make a road across perhaps the old hog eye road that's down. Most people don't even know it exists there. Comes out right near the dam on 973. Isn't it time to think about putting in an alternate road? There's really very little alternate access in this area. That's all I have right now.
>> thank you very much. Yes?
>> hi. Hi mi name's [ inaudible ] and I actually live on lock wootd road. And to readdress the amount of vehicles, not even close. I live 100 feet from the road. My old mailbox has been wiped out twice from people driving too fast. You have long haulers going in and out from will barger all day long. That's not even half the long haulers that live down there because they're on blake manor right now. You're going to push them on my road, which you've just redone. Okay? It's not going to last. And I can't let my child play in the front yard right now and you're going to should have all this traffic on to -- shoaf all this traffic on to my road. We're talking about the thousands everyday is what's going to happen. I can't get a cop out there to come and run radar. They don't have enough of them. Okay? I'm one of the complainers. I love to complain. I call every time. People are passing on that road. It's no passing. They pass the school buses in the morning and in the afternoon. And you're just going to make it worse by closing blake manor and detouring them down lockwood. You're talking about putting signs down there past jones road. That's right there by me, okay? Secondly, I'm glad y'all are working with the school, but if you force the buses out on to 290, my child will not be riding the bus. It's not safe. Does anybody live out there? Did they see the fog this morning? If the bus had tried to cross at kimbro road at 290, somebody would have hit it. You can't see. Just slowing the traffic down, please, nobody's going to pay attention to that. You need a stoplight if you're going to do that. It's not going to be safe.
>> joe, what are we doing for traffic control in this area, especially on lockwood and some of these areas that will incur additional volumes of traffic? Are we looking at any type of traffic control to ensure that people adhere to the signage, reduced speeds, stuff like that?
>> we're going to move some traffic direction signs. These will be an enforcement issue. [ inaudible ] in addition, we also will have signs out on the out skirts of the neighborhood, way out, to encourage the trucks from coming -- discourage the trucks from coming into the neighborhood.
>> can we make it no heavy trucks over this amount? They have to go down taylor? This is a neighborhood. There's houses all along this road. And you're going to be pushing these long haulers. They live back there, they need a place to drive, I have nothing against them, but they fly just like everybody else does. They don't follow the 40 miles per hour speed zone. People get mad at me when I do 40 miles per hour on my own road and pass me on a curve! It's not going to be safe.
>> thank you very much. Yes, sir.
>> yes, sir, good morning, ladies and gentlemen. My name is jim mottesinger and I live on rob lane, which is basically a dirt road that is right off of hog eye that you all have just refinished, redone. Done a beautiful job on redoing hog eye. I have a couple of concerns and questions. I guess the question first, a number of us on morab have tried for some time to get the county to take that road over. It is a road that was put in and dedicated to the county some 20 years ago, but not brought -- not put into standards since it was not accepted. And our understanding is that there is a program to update the substandard roads and we're number one on the list we've been told several times, but none have been done during this period. While blake manor is being done it's a good time to use the material that has to be taken off of blake manor, the old road that was grouped up, we tried to talk to the engineers and get it done when hog eye was done because they were right there. And question thought that material was going to be put on morab and built up, but somehow it did not get done, so that's one question I have is why the materials that you have to grind up and take off of blake manor can't be put on morab now and save you some money when you do come back and redo the substandard program and take over. It would seem to me to use the material that's right there within a mile or so than later haul in more material at a much larger expense. The other thing i'd like to address is I'm a member of the manor volunteer fire department. I cannot say that I'm here representing the fire department. I'm here as an individual member at this point. But I'm wondering about emergency traffic down blake manor. We've talked at our last meeting, we do have a fire station, basically a covered shed further down blake manor road. There's talk about trying to put a piece of equipment down there. Right now we're kind of equipment poor to have -- but that still does not answer medic 23, which comes out of harrison branch for e.m.s. Calls down there generally. It does not -- we need some provision for emergency traffic to get through at almost all times. And having watched them do hog eye, there were a few times that I had to wait because I had to drive hog eye even while it was under construction because I live off of hog eye. There were a few times I might have to wait for a front-end loader to back out of the road, but it was possible to get through at all times, and I'm wondering why it's necessary to totally shut down the road even intermittently. Even if it requires some delays on people, they ought to be able to get through at all times. They would help with the emergency traffic getting through.
>> emergency vehicles, emergency medical or fire will have access at all times. We'll treat them just like the school district. We certainly want to get the fastest response we can for fire and e.m.s. And the roads will be open to local -- to local access. What we're trying to do is reroute the through traffic. Because it's very difficult to reconstruct a road when you're trying to pass volumes of traffic at the same time. So we will keep it open for emergencies and for local access, but not through traffic.
>> and I understand the through traffic, like other people have said, your estimate of hundreds of cars a day is an order of magnitude too low on the traffic that goes down blake manor.
>> let's get his address and send him a written response to the substandard road issue he raised.
>> yes, sir?
>> good morning. My name is jack stribler and I live on parsons road, 11609 parsons road. I also have a concern about the kimbro road/290 access because I have the same problem at my driveway. My driveway is just over on the other side of the hill. When they were redoing my road I asked them if I could maybe get some kind of a turnout where I could get in on to the street without getting run over because you have all these cars over there and I will get killed getting out of my driveway because of the the limited sight over this hill. Also, the same problem exists on kimbro road. You two go to 290 and you try get off and there's a hill there. Everyone knows you can't see over a hill. So when a car comes over the top of the hill, there's a limited amount of time they will be able to stop for anybody crossing into the traffic. That's going to be a real problem, especially if you have school buses and 18 wheel gravel trucks. Because there's a divided road there and people will go out in the middle and people coming out from the east, elgin, that way, someone is going to get killed. That's why they put that light there at 973, the loop 212, because somebody got killed thrvment I saw that happen. And that's not even a hill there. That's flat. Coming over that rise on these hills is really dangerous. And when I asked the people about it when they were doing the road, they said they were going to send out the sight engineers. I don't know if they ever did or said that there's nothing wrong. But in the meantime I had applied for another driveway permit, but I just don't have the fund to put in another road to my property at this point. I'm kind of concerned about that. Also, parsons road, as you know, this will barger creek, you have a little thing up there and it probably has flooded out six times this year. Somebody is going to drown there going through there. You can't go through there. I don't think anybody can go through there with anything.
>> we closed it, right?
>> we close t.
>> if it floods, we really have to close it to make sure that blake manor road is open during that period.
>> right. And y'all really have got to keep an eye on that because I live there and I see this creek flood a lot. And it's hours before anybody comes out and puts a sign up and blocks the road. Most of the people that live out there know about this, but as you might know, on the corner of lockwood and parsons, the city of Austin has granted permits to build 500 houses there, two more subdivisions are coming in there. One of the hearings is tonight. The other one was last week Tuesday. And that's going to be a lot of people. So you might want to consider a bigger road because we know from past experience in different parts of the county that once that happens and the access -- it just doesn't happen.
>> morning, county commissioners, your honor, judge, my name is Ron jay. I live in bastrop county. And i've used hog eye, blake manor, lockwood for 20 years. I know the problems of what has happened on blake manor. I think the first problem that ever got started in the first place was allowing briar creek to put in their subdivision where their road would enter into blake manor at that precise spot. If it were just a half a mile towards town, towards 953, they probably wouldn't have that problem. I'm sure at some point when they started this subdivision, they probably agreed to straighten out the road. What I was wondering is at which point -- when somebody comes out and puts in a new subdivision and it's their mistake, their problem and it's the taxpayers of Travis County, which -- [ inaudible ] it's why we have to bear the full brunt of that. Granted, manor road has needed an entire facelift. It's not just to dead end it into 973 where it then causes another problem. There are probably about 50 or 60 18-wheelers a day that travel from del valle through darryl lane and then they -- taylor lane and then they turn left and go through town and head on out to Pflugerville. By moving the traffic down lockwood and up parsons lane, if it rains just a little bit, parsons lane will be blocked off and it will take probably four six-foot concrete culverts, plus four direction al concrete abutments to direct the water through there. And then the far side of the parsons lane will have to be diagnosis out 10 feet all the way to below grade on parsons. That's not going to be cheap. Then once the 18-wheelers, not even counting cars, get up to kimbro lane and 290, they won't even be able to get across. So now you have a traffic jam there. They're already blocked off letting road, which if -- that's a bad one also. If they are not to do letting road and at least have traffic go up that road, then there's a stoplight up there at 290 and 973, which could ease some of that problem. I think the biggest thing what's going to happen is even after they block off this road and block after letting road and all the traffic is going to still end up right there going through manor, if they're going to do something like that, with these new subdivisions going down here, it just might be a possibility to make like a divided highway where you've got one road going in, you're working on that one. When that one's done, run it through manor and have it come out near parmer lane, then work on the other half of the road. Regardless of whatever comes out, it's going to be a traffic jam going through manor. Thank you. [one moment, please, for change in captioners] elohi.
>> ... That the reason they do it is because they are going from the gravel pits in webberville to Pflugerville, Round Rock and georgetown and they be don't have to cover their loads. I think that should be rectified. They don't need to use that for a shortcut. The road is not made for that kind of traffic. I was run off that road because of a gravel truck coming around one of those bad curves, taking their half out of the million dollars of the road. There just happened to be a dropoff on blake manor road where I had to run off. It damned near killed me and my son. So I think that kind of traffic should be taken off of blake manor, put on 973 and 969, and I don't care if they have to go out ofheir way. Get them off of our road. They don't belong there. Another thing, the little stretch between parsons lane and the old kimbrough road intersection is totally torn up. You can drop a pickup truck in those potholes. Is that going to be fixed before you route us through there?
>> yes.
>> okay. Fine. Fine. But like the other fellow said,littig road from kimbrough has been closed a long time. When are you going to --
>> that will be closed for up to a year and a half.
>> oh, my god. And so we have to use 290?
>> sir, I wish --
>> sir, I wish you had to drive that route. Okay. I had a lot of notes here, but I'm going to skip a lot of them. The other question is the engineer to did burleson road, is he the same man whist going to do blake manor? That's good because burleson manor road is now a very dangerous road. It's got a good surface, but all the curves are banked the wrong direction. And if you come up burleson-manor going north and you hit that curve just past the sheriff's department at the speed limit, which is 40 miles an hour, you are in trouble. I guarantee you, you are in trouble because it's banked the wrong direction and it will get you. So are all the rest of the curves on that road. So if you are going to do any curves on blake manor, I suggest you take a good close look at banking the curves. According to the manor newspaper, capital excavating has until July to complete the work. Why are we closing till December? Anybody got answers to that? It was in the last paper. Also it says with the possible exception of adding a turn lane at hamilton point -- this is a quote -- the county does not plan to increase the number of lanes nor change the present route of blake manor. There's no mention of turn lanes at briarcreek. They say they are not changing the route. You know, why are we doing all this? Except other than to take the dips and dives out of the road.
>> well, first of all, it is going to be realigned in portions. There will be a turn lane at Briarcliff.
>> that's briarcreek, sir. Brie cliff ain't in our -- Briarcliff ain't in our neighborhood.
>> I'm sorry. You understood what I meant.
>> yes. Is it going to be from both directions?
>> with the turn lane?
>> yes, sir.
>> one direction.
>> is that going north or south?
>> [inaudible].
>> going where, sir? Going northeast? So people coming into manor --
>> [inaudible].
>> right. Coming from manor.
>> right.
>> so you are going southeast. Okay. Well, one turn lane is better than no turn lanes. I believe that really somebody ought to look into this gravel truck traffic out there because they are just using it for a shortcut. They have no other reason to be on that road, most of them, other than the ones that are actually going to the new subdivisions. Now, they have a need to be on that road, but they also need to cover their loads. I agree with the folks at that 290 intersection we're going to get people killed there. Because if you look to the west, you can't see over the hill. At quitting time there's going to be tons of traffic going out there. I don't know if you all have been out there during rush hour, but the manor, elgin traffic is terrible now and getting worse because we're building five new subdivisions out there with two or three more in the -- you know, on the books. And that intersection is not traffic controlled. I drive it pretty often. And you can sit there for a long time during non-rush hour periods trying to get across there. So, you know, slowing the traffic down ain't going to work. We're goings to need a traffic light. If they would fix littig road where you could go into manor around 973, there's already a light there, but he says it will be a year and a half before they fix it. So we have a major problem, folks, and I appreciate your time. And I hope we can do something to straighten all this out.
>> thank you.
>> make sure you get your phone number on those concerns that you brought up. Make sure that you change that information with joe.
>> pardon me? I'm not hearing you.
>> yes, sir.
>> thank you.
>> hello, my name is peyton town send. I live on lockwood road. I just wanted to bring up, like my fellow resident, kimbrough road isn't in too good a shape, and actually right before you get to 290, you have a construction company that is right on top of a hill. And so you come off a hill going down to the stop sign. And there's a lot of vehicles that come in and out of that construction company. Also, I know that they are going to put signs down by jones road and [inaudible] road, which you don't see on the map. Now, you know as well as I do people are going to use those roads and they will hit littig, but they are not going to take any more roads to 290 because they will be backtracking. You know, human nature, you are not going to backtrack. You are going to come straight down littig road where it's in terrible shape and we'll come all the way to kimbrough road. So I think his perception of people taking alternate routes to 290 is misleading. They will come all the way down, so you will have everybody come -- be using kimbrough road because nobody will want to backtrack. And that's all I wanted to say. Thank you.
>> thank you.
>> yes, ma'am.
>> my name is jewel stremler, and I live on parsons road. First of all, I would like to address the public hearing issue that ms. Sonleitner brought up. We have not had a public hearing in our community. I talked to several people in the last few days that said they would like to come and comment, but they couldn't take off work to be here at 9:00. Coming out to that neighborhood meeting, I do belong to that neighborhood association and I couldn't come to that meeting that night. I don't know how many people came, but we have a lot of traffic who is coming who live outside of our neighborhood -- our neighborhood association is for this little area of parsons and lockwood comes somewhat down blake manor and a little out taylor road. But on out east of us, those people are going to be impacted by this. They don't even belong to our neighborhood association. If -- I just think it's a real shame that people are not getting a chance to comment on this. I think the big issue that you have here is your -- you are closing the two main roads that all of the people that live out southeast of manor use to get to work and to school. At the same time, for not just a short period of time, you are talking about over a year, and we all know that's a projection and how long is this really going to take because we have seen a lot of projects, probably the majority of the projects that i've ever seen or heard of in my life time are not completed in the projected amount of time. I'm sitting here on parsons road. I love the new parmer road. I usually take that to work, and I work way out at howard lane and 1325. It takes me 45 minutes to get to work. If I have to drive an extra 20 miles to get over to 969 to go way south of where I live to get to howard lane, I mean, this is just totally unacceptable to me that without any public hearing you are closing down our two main roads that we use to get to work and school at the same time for many, many months. And we don't even -- I don't even have a clue how long you really intend. One of them says 15 months, and I can't remember, the other one was the biggest part of a year. I have the same issues that everyone else has there's no light at kimbrough road, you can't see in one direction and there's solid traffic in the other direction. You can't get halfway out in the road there and expect to be safe while you are waiting to clear the other side if you are trying to turn left to go to go in to work or school. I'm very concerned about school buses. That's just -- you know, that's just a real safety issue. I'm concerned about my 18-year-old daughter who drives. I'm concerned about her being sitting there on that corner and having people honking behind her because they are late to work and they are 10, 12, 15, 20 cars back from and can't get out at the intersection. My other concern is that where I live on parsons road, I live right over a hill. They came along and they redid everybody's approach. They put in these wonderful little -- big, not little, big culverts that are very nice and all of that. We would like to move our driveway to the other side of the property. That would give us another 300 feet of people coming over the hill for us to have a chance for them to see us and for us to see them. We've tried to work with the county to come back and put the culvert at a new location for our driveway and we've not been able to get them to do that. They just tell us, well, the county doesn't do that anymore. I was under the impression since they did all the other driveways on the street that they did maintain your approach to your driveway. That's my biggest issue. I would like for myself and my family to be able to get out of our driveway without getting killed. And I think 100 cars a day is a very conservative estimate. You've seen that she's talking about impacting 700 children. Well, all of those children have parents and families who are trying to go to work. So -- and then we have people out there who don't have children in the school system. So I think we're talking about a lot more than a few hundred cars a day. And they are all going to go right in front of my house now. Whereas, you know, I might have had a few hundred cars a day before this, but now I'm having many multiples of that. So I'm really very upset that you can't build one road, fix it, and then build the other one. I think building them both at the same time is -- you are asking a lot of the people in that community. You are asking a lot of us to put that upon us. It's -- you know, what you are thinking of is they are going to put these subdivisions in and we want these developers to be able to sell this property, we want to accommodate the people who are building these subdivisions and we want to get this done as fast as we can so when they've got buyers coming out here, the roads will look nice for them. I mean, I guess that's what you are doing because, to me, blake manor road is not in that bad of shape to spend all that money right now ripping it up and redoing it. Littig road needs some work. But if you really wanted to spend the money on something that would be effective for our community, you could put a bridge in there so that every time it floods, we don't have to -- you know, that people could get out. You've got -- all of your -- every place that you are diverting traffic to, jones road has a place that gludz, all those other roads also flood. They all have low-water crossings that aren't being addressed. So anyway, I'm probably just -- [inaudible].
>> let me ask you this question. I would like to get you down to this. What is our normal procedure when we have road closures as far as appreciation is concerned, come to court?
>> just what we're doing right now.
>> okay. Thank you.
>> where was the public meeting held?
>> at crow's nest, there's a little -- a small petting zoo right at taylor and blake manor, and the neighborhood meeting was at that location.
>> how many folk attended?
>> oh, I would say probably quite a few. I would say roughly about 80.
>> we were told that the residents preferred to do -- us to do both projects at one time, get them out of the way, and that may be.
>> the residents that i've talked to do not prefer that. I'm a resident.
>> the ones who attended the meeting.
>> I don't see how -- maybe they didn't understand that both of the roads would be completely closed. Actually my husband called and he was told that blake manor would be open except for -- would be open for through traffic except for certain times in the summer when they would need -- they would absolutely need to close the whole thing down. And I actually think we were under the impression, someone told me after that neighborhood meeting that the road would be one lane because they did not think about how parsons flooded. So we were under the impression that we would still be able to get in and out of blake manor while it was under construction.
>> that's true. Describe how much -- how often we think blake manor, in fact, will be open to traffic.
>> again, anyone has local access will be able to use blake manor during construction except for the few days we have to totally close the road to replace a box culvert. What we're trying to detour is the true traffic, people not living in this area that should be going around.
>> if you live on parsons road, are you local traffic on blake manor?
>> thir trapped in between.
>> what would --
>> I would say you probably have a good point.
>> it would pick up [inaudible]. That answers part of it. If we are allowing traffic on blake main erks the southeastern portion, to use the road to get to points west of there, then it would increase the traffic from lockwood road to parsons, so let's try to do that. Okay? And on the kimbrough, 290 east matter, I think that we ought to monitor that daily, work with the state and do whatever is necessary. If you are talk being about -- if you are talking about a substantial investment of money, I think the state would wanted to see a safety problem results before installing a light. But if we see that in fact one has resulted, then we can do that. Now, if we install signals and different signage and that doesn't work, and if we're talking about morning and afternoon, to work, after work, then we can post deputy sheriffs or try to get dps to have a strong presence. If we're looking at 7:00 to 9:00 and in the evening 4:00 to 6:00, if that doesn't work, it seems to me we may have to make the investment for a traffic light there. But I guess you almost would have to gradually work up to that point. That's the best we can do today, I think.
>> can the county put in an approach for me like they did everybody else on the road in a spot that's 300 feet further down the road from the [inaudible]?
>> get your name and address. We'll see what work has been done, what the answers have been so far, whether those ought to be modified. That's the top guy in the transportation. The guy with all the hair on the side of his head there. And [inaudible] respond to it, we can do that.
>> thank you for your comments.
>> if the court does not know of the culvert situation with you, if we need to get engaged, joe, let us know. Otherwise we'll get it to the top. Yes, sir.
>> gene kealing, I live on blake manor road and corner of burleson manor and blake manor. I live three-quarters of a mile from where the public hearing was held [inaudible] there's nothing posted so they have limited access if they wanted to the meeting evidently because there was nothing sent out to the people that live in there other than possibly neighborhood association that evidently was done. I suggest that possibly they do is open blake manor road earlier during the day and then later of an afternoon other than construction time for people to use that road. We have a lot of other construction areas that do, that they close the road during the day. I understand that. When they are not construction, let people go through and use it. I think it's very poor planning. You said the people said to do it, but very poor planning on the engineering part to close both roads at the same time. Because there is a red light. We could use littig road, come out on 973 and 290, there's a a red light for people to have access. It's probably going to end up getting somebody killed going out kimbrough road because you can see about 3/10 of a mile or less to the left as you come out of kimbrough towards manor. People trying to come out there, a foggy morning this morning, I promise you we're going to have some deaths out of this. It's poor planning on the county's part to tear them up both at one time. If we had not done littig, we could use a red light for having access to road. I think there are numbers of 100 -- I think there's more like in the thousands of cars use blake manor road during the day. I think they did a study on that thing. I've been out there 26 years, and I sat at my driveway the other morning at 6:30 and had to let 22 cars go by so I could get out of my road. That's at 6:30. Later in the day, when there's more traffic. Like I say, the cars, there's going to be more in the thousands that use that road during the day. Again, said before, I hope our engineering staff is doing a better job than it did on burleson manor road. That road, they put one course of blacktop on it and for some reason they stopped for a while. Before they came back with the second course, that pavement has already started cracking and splitting apart. There's splits and cracks. I don't know whether the engineering staff didn't do is have the subgrade compacted to a certain density because that road is definitely failing and we wasted a lot of county dollars redoing that road a year ago. Within two or three years it's going to all be apart and have to be rebuilt. I hope to put a little more emphasis on subgrade and making sure the density is compacted to it. Been in the excavation 20 years and talking about the bumps on blake manor, that's -- that shifts and gives and you are going to have that. We can fix it. It could be smooth as this table top today. A year from now you are going to have the waves in it again. That's the nature of the [inaudible]. Like I say, my main concern is the safety of people trying to get out on 290. And like I say, I'm afraid that it's going to end up we're going to have some people killed having to use kimbrough. I thank you for your time and appreciate it.
>> thank you for your comments.
>> my name is keith kiley and I live at taylor and lockwood road, and I did attend that neighborhood association meeting at crow's nest farm where these two gentlemen were at. I wasn't going to speak today, but I attended that meeting, and it was brought up that they were going to do construction on parsons lane to get that ready for all of the traffic that's going to be diverted off of blake manor. And they asked do you want to do it all together or separately. And my understanding was this they were going to get parsons lane in shape so we could have a route out before they started on blake manor. But I don't think anybody at that meeting knew that they were going to shut littig road down so you couldn't get over to 973 and get out to 290 where there's a traffic light. Now -- and everybody said this that's come up here, and I just want to confirm that if people have to go out kimbrough road to 290, people are going to get killed. And someone is going to have to answer to that.
>> well, our goal is for people not to get killed at kimbrough and 290.
>> I understand that. But everyone here is telling you that's what's going to happen. And it will. Someone is going to have to answer for people getting killed going out to 290 and kimbrough road.
>> what's your response about improving parsons road?
>> it was reconstructed, and the crews will be out -- actually a contract will be out next week to finish the overlay. In other words, they had to stop for the winter because it was too cold to finish the overlay. Because the temperatures are now going back up, we can put in a hot mix overlay and finish the work.
>> we will improve parsons road.
>> yes, sir, but that wasn't my point. My point was that at the meeting, we wanted parsons road repaired before blake manor was shut down. But no one was aware that they were going to shut littig road between parsons and manor where you can't get out to 973 where the traffic light is. So yes, they said you want to do it all together or separately, they said, well, we want parsons road fixed, but no one knew they were shutting littig down for 18 months where you couldn't get to manor that way.
>> we can come -- cover part of the concerns about both roads being closed and we can leave blake manor open to the extent we can and expand the definition of local traffic. However, the more we leave it open to accommodate lockwood road, parsons road traffic, the longer the project will take.
>> I agree.
>> now, if we can live with that --
>> I agree it should be shut down and done as fast as possible, even if it inconveniences us, but not to make it dangerous.
>> I agree. Okay. Well, what's the best way to get out word of a public meeting to this general area?
>> well, we're in the park -- park springs neighborhood association, and they put it on the computer.
>> [inaudible].
>> manor paper.
>> they send out flyers.
>> what did we do? To get out the word.
>> actually we contacted the neighborhood association. The notices went out for their meeting. We were part of their agenda.
>> but we didn't put it in the manor newspaper.
>> no, we did not.
>> okay. Thank you very much. Anybody else to give testimony during this public hearing? I do think we ought to try to address as many of those concerns as possible. Put txdot on notice that the safety issue at kimbrough and 290 is maybe worse than we anticipated, and we need to partner with them and monitor that and be prepared to do what's necessary. And we ought to be out there from the beginning monitoring the traffic ourselves. And if we need to pay a little overtime to deputy sheriffs to increase the law enforcement presence on that, then we may have to figure out a way to do that too. And leave open the possibility of trying to persuade the state to install a signal light, if we can persuade them that it's necessary. Now, are we beyond our ability to delay the commencement of one of these projects for, say, a year, year and a half?
>> the answer to that is we have awarded the contracts. To delay the project at this time would probably cost some money to remobilize.
>> let's look at these issues, try to figure out what can be done, and the best way for us to give notice to the residents to came down today may be a press statement in the manor newspaper, if we can get them to print it for us; and contacting the neighborhood associations there. We're looking at maybe having something in 10 days? Joe? My only other point then is if you have not heard of this in 10 days, if you will contact us at 854-9383, we can mail you a copy directly to whatever address you give us.
>> joe, also in the parsons road improvement, resurfacing, when do you think you will begin on that and when you will have it complete?
>> it will probably be done -- again, depending on the weather, we'll have it scheduled for next week.
>> for next week?
>> it's a one-day, perhaps two-day piece of work.
>> okay. Okay. Thank you.
>> anybody else to give testimony during this public hearing?
>> move the public hearing be closed.
>> second.
>> all in favor? That passes by unanimous vote.
Last Modified: Wednesday, April 2, 2003 10:25 AM