Travis County Commssioners Court
March 4, 2003
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Item 5
5. Discuss a temporary road closure of littig road from fm road 973 to old kimbro road beginning March 12,
>> 2003 to completion (estimated 15 months) for the construction of bridge structures and road/approach improvements on littig road in precinct one.
>> motion to open the public hearing.
>> second.
>> all in favor?
>> that passes by unanimous vote.
>> good morning, carol joseph, t.n.r. This is one of our c.i.p. Projects and we are -- we constructed the road and bridges and approach to the bridges and the road and it's simply to close it during that construction period. We've had no objection. And it's anticipated that this construction project will take 15 months.
>> 15 months.
>> would anyone like to give testimony during the public hearing? There are two people, please come forward, if you would give us your name we would be happy to get your comments. Have a seat, get real comfortable.
>> good morning.
>> good morning.
>> name, please.
>> both of you.
>> my name is vicki mcfarland, I am a resident of northeast Travis County for the past 17 years. My address is 20818 hogeye in manor, Texas. I live very close to the area in question of littig road. I also would like to bring to your attention that you have a sign post odd lake manor that you will been having a hearing concerning blake manor next week. The problem is if you are going to be closing blake manor road shortly to be working on it, this is also going to have an effect on littig road. I guess my concern is with travelling down the detour road, which is littig, I'm sorry, which is parsons, runs into littig, now you are going to be telling us that you are going to be closing littig for the next 15 months, that kind of causes a problem for us getting into town and going to work. I am also an employee of the manor independent school district. We are concerned with our buses that also must go down this area. I am hoping that you could realize that this might cause a little problem with one closed road, now you are having another one at the same time. Thank you.
>> thank you.
>> any response to that?
>> yes. We realized and we were going to have two projects going on simultaneously, when we orient out to the neighborhood and asked them what their preference would be, whether or not they wanted to stagger these two or go ahead and get it all done at one time. We were told that rather than having them -- they would rather have them done simultaneously and get the work done. That's why we are where we are.
>> when was that public hearing.
>> actually we met with the groups in the neighborhood.
>> when were those meetings.
>> about six months ago.
>> we had a neighborhood meeting at that time and we also advised them that the conditions of parsons road was not very good and if they were going to do parsons road as a detour, that we would need a considerable amount of repair work done to parsons road. That has since been done; however, the condition of parsons road is deplorable. They did not use enough road base or whatever, I'm not sure of all of those terms, but that project has been completed approximately a month and it already has potholes in it, patches in it, and I hate to think that the added traffic that is now going to be going down this road coming into this other problem with littig road, that that road is not going to last. There is another road called hogeye that was recently reconstructed with private funding, I guess, there is no comparison between the condition of those two roads. It is in great shape. It has a lot of road base, it has great landfill, whatever, all of this that was done with this. Parsons road is ridiculous, I worry that school buses going down it, as well as trucks going down it, as well as the normal traffic that's going to be going down parsons to try to get into manor, it's not going to last. I would hope if you can look into the condition of the repair work that was done on that, it already needs repairs, it's not very old.
>> I just want to add that the difference between hogeye and parsons is hogeye was reconstructed because it was a bond project, so it's a much better roadway. What we did on parsons was -- was not the same type of maintenance. There's another issue, I just want to be clear about this, that there's a low water crossing on parsons that does flood and -- in a flood event. And the cost of putting a bridge in was beyond our budget. So that condition still exists. And we realize that there's a certain risk in using parsons and that during a flood event that option may not be available. But that doesn't affect, I mean, it's -- there are really no good options in this area because there's so few roadways.
>> how long will -- will blake manor take?
>> we expect blake manor to last until about December. And that contract has been awarded. So actually both of these contracts have been awarded.
>> so parsons is part of the detour group for the bridge?
>> yes.
>> okay, detour route for the bridge.
>> also the detour for blake manor. You are going to go right into the littig problem at the same time. I think one project needs to be delayed until it gets finished because why should you -- I know, yes, our neighborhood association did that, but that was back in the fall and we weren't aware that all of this was going to be happening at the same time, I don't believe. If we could delay one until we get the other one finished, if the blake manor job is going to take a while, blake manor is a very well traveled road, we have new subdivisions out there now, a lot more people living there than we ever had before. I hate to think all of those people are going to go back to parsons, into littig, again parsons is not a very well prepared road for this traffic, I don't believe it's going to make it.
>> may I address that issue? For those people who live along these roadways, they will have access. The new subdivisions, they will continue to have access through the construction.
>> what about the school districts buses?
>> same with the school district. What will not be aloud is through traffic.
>> on blake manor we will, I guess, construct two lanes, leave two open or construct one, leave one open.
>> yes.
>> and alternate after we complete one.
>> right. We will also phase [inaudible] road so that one segment will be done, the other one will be left open so that it can actually serve as a detour route. The idea is to get the traffic out to 290, highway 290. And then on 290 take them into town.
>> my name is [inaudible], I live on old highway 20 which they are called in littig, littig road takes up on the other side of the railroad track where it detours around. They are planning on closing that road, too, for approximately a year or 15 months, everything on that road is businesses, we are talking about 18 wheelers, we are talking moving companies, trailer manufacturers, concrete tile, school bus, everything else, they are talking about shutting it down completely. That forces everyone on old highway 20 to go to 290 like jim was saying. The problem with that is 290 when I come out on old kimbro road, it's all uphill back toward town. No way, no signal light, when the traffic comes back, someone is going to get hurt. There's going to be wrecks there, I can guarantee you that. The gentleman that evens the moving -- that owns the moving company, they changed the meeting time on the signs so he couldn't get here this morning. I talked to the contractor this morning, he's told me that if it was approve and okay, there wouldn't be a problem with putting road culverts where the brims are going toxd be?r taken -- bridges are going to be taken out, axd 10-foot lane for everyone to it?ippsh he told me that would ? up to whoever makes the decisions, he didn't make a decision on that. He also got several houses on that road. One of the houses, mine in particular, I have my business there, too, I also live there, I have elderly people in the house. My -- my mother-in-law and father-in-law who both go back and forth to the hospital. E.m.s. Cannot make it out very quick if they have to go the long way around. That's -- if we had a small light at 290 and kimbro road, it wouldn't be a problem. I wouldn't even be down here. But that's going to shut us completely off. Plus I work on the south side of manor. I do work in the subdivisions over there. I do all of the homes for main street over there. I'm back and forth, five, six, seven times a day from my office to the jobs. It takes a long time if I have got to go completely all the way around to do that. But my main concern is someone is going to get hurt if they have to go on kimbro road, come out on 290. We discussed that in length this morning. The contractor and i, he agreed it wasn't a good deal, but that's what was thrown at him, so that's where we are at on that. We really do need to keep a lane open. No one needs to get someone hurt because of time or money. And that's all this is going to do. It doesn't cost that much to put culverts down in those creeks. They don't flow much water at all. The only one that flows is where the railroad track goes over into the city of manor, only flows big water, it's taken care of already.
>> did you [inaudible]
>> I never knew anything about a meeting. No one has ever identified me of anything. I have never seen any signs about it.
>> joe, what's our response to the recommendation that we leave half of the bridge open, construct the other half, then --
>> judge, I don't think we can leave half of the bridge open. I'm roger, shook, engineer for t.n.r. We couldn't basically construct half a bridge at that time. We would have to do it as a complete bridge. But we could have a temporary crossing. Like the gentleman said, if we want to go in and get the easement from private property, temporary easements, we could put a temporary crossing. But creating the approach to go down across that creek and back up, I would have to run some numbers, but in the past typically this could run anywhere from 50 to 70 grand depending on the topography at the location. So these temporary crossing are very expensive. And what we have in the construction plans is only one bridge is going to be closed. We have two bridges under construction that will be rebuilt, but only one will be closed at any given time. The other one will stay open until the other bridge is completely constructed. So any person living on littig road between 973 and kimbro will have access napped out of their property at all times. They will either have to go up east up kimbro or west towards 973 and the town of manor and get out.
>> let's assume that that we increase the safety risk at kimbro road and 290. Because of increased traffic and I guess morning traffic up and down. We would contact texdot--
>> correct. We would have to try to contact texdot and see if we could get a temporary signal there, which would be expensive and again they would have to grant power mission to do any identifications on a temporary basis at that particular intersection.
>> but we could at least monitor the -- the safety of that intersection during the first week or two of the bridge project to see if -- if the risk is unacceptable because if it is, then we would certainly want to work with texdot and improve it, right?
>> I think there might be some other lower cost measures short of a signal also that would help improve the safety of that intersection. So the short answer, we will work with texdot on ways to improve the safety of the intersection during this construction project.
>> do you have in mind during morning hours when traffic is coming out to get on 290?
>> actually, it's more than afternoon traffic. It's terrible. It backs up all the way through the city of manor at the light in manor, all the way almost back to 973, it's terrible. They come through there, I mean, it's -- nobody is doing the speed limit. Let's put it that way. For anyone to come out of that intersection and try to turn and go across the first lanes in west wound lanes and -- westbound lanes and start up that hill, trying to get out, someone is going to get run over and hurt. If any of you look at that, you can see exactly what I'm talking about. It would not be acceptable to you, I can promise you that. On the other hand, the way I'm understanding, there's only one bridge they are actually going to pour and use beams on, the others are going to be --
>> well, the other bridge is a box culvert, but it's still the same scenario. That area, it will be closed. You will be -- you won't be able to cross.
>> how many bridges --
>> we are talking about two brims. One will be pier and beam, the other a multi box culvert. Like I said, only one will be closed at any given time. We will, of course, tear down one, rebuild it to the new structure and have that open to local traffic before we commence the -- the other bridge.
>> I understand. But my thing is on this bridge is I know that you are talking 15 months. I'm -- I would bet it takes a lot longer than that. I don't think you can take into consideration all of the weather that we've had and are going to continue to have. Future forecasts that we are hearing about. That out there when it gets wet, it is nasty. Nothing but mud, black clay and it just -- you can't do anything with it. You -- in my driveway, I probably spent $6,000 on my driveway, it's still sinking, the road base. So it's not -- it's not, you know, it's just not feasible to do that.
>> joe, we have taken that into consideration, haven't we? We have taken that -- the soil that you are working with into consideration?
>> yes, we have.
>> we build that in.
>> I have one question. We can sit here and I can take your time up all day going back and forth. The one thing that I have got my concern is what is a life worth? If you go out there and look at that, you will see exactly what I'm saying.
>> I do think we ought to monitor that and respond accordingly. I'm familiar with the intersection. I haven't been out there in in the early morning in a long time, though. I do think we ought to look at that and put texdot on notice that the level of risk may increase.
>> I have within out there for seven years -- been out there for seven years. All of the lights added from Austin all the way out past manor, there's been people get killed at every one of those lights when they put them up. Every one of them. That's just another danger coming over that hill and down that hill, that someone is not necessarily pulling out of kim brorks but may run -- kimbro, but may run into the back of someone. Like they have before, every time they put lights out there, someone gets killed.
>> I appreciate both of your commence this morning. I'm glad that t.n.r. Is receiving input. For a long time, we have been looking at a lot of severe flooding problems that do take place out there, because of the community realizing that we had an opportunity to -- to get bonds approved to -- to address a lot of these considerations, and it came upon the safety because we do -- very few [inaudible], a whole lot of things out there in precinct 1 is several of them that's going to be replaced. Safety, I think what you are saying, what I heard joe saying this morning, coming here from the court this morning, is that we do have a situation at that 290 kimbro intersection that -- hope that we -- as we go through the phases of the construction process. As we are going through this process, the community has -- has been an outcrop of many, many years, these are the things that happen to improve our situation like this. This is I think one effort that you can make to go ahead and take care, allow these problems that have been occurring for many years. In the 15 months [inaudible] on some of this, but there is a short term as far as blake manor for example, it will not take as long. So really wanting staff to get back and see what those safety things are as far as addressing those concerns that you brought up and then get back with us on that, I think that is something that we can do to ensure that we go ahead and get these projects started and then completed in a timely manner and still address those kinds of concerns, I think we can still do those things.
>> are they going to start construction on the 12th? That's what I was told.
>> yes.
>> is that going to be enough time to take everything into consideration? I mean, all of the safety issues? Do something about them if you find something is necessary to do or --
>> seems to me that on monitoring the safety level at the intersection, you would have to close the bridge and then watch the traffic a few mornings. I don't know that we could -- we know the situation out there now, right? That's the state highway, there's a country road that interjects with it. Right now I guess that you have various goes ones, once we close the brim, though, we eliminate one of them. If that traffic goes old kimbro to 290. Then the question is what impact would that have on safety. We just need to put texdot on notice, I think, monitor it, be able to respond. Now, in fairness, if we have the meetings and we try to defer to the residents and they come and say basically rather than stringing this out, move both projects at one time, get them over, I assume that the condition of the littig bridge is not good.
>> no, it's not.
>> otherwise we wouldn't replace it, we would try to repair it typically.
>> but I think at the same time when I attended this meeting last fall, we were assured that parsons was going to be repaired to the point that we could travel down it.
>> we need to take a look at parsons and make sure that can happen. I agree with that. We can do that. Go out and take a look at parsons, make sure that it can withstand increased traffic as a result of this project.
>> yes, we can do that. Again I want to -- the low water crongs is going to be an issue.
>> still you could have done a better job on either side of the bridge with the -- [inaudible]
>> there's nothing that we can do in short term to resolve that issue of flooding.
>> correct. But there's plenty of road on either side of the bridge that we are going to be going down that we are going to have a lot of damage to our cars, buses and it's not lasting now.
>> we will look at that.
>> okay.
>> can we get you all to exchange names and phone numbers there.
>> judge, one thing that we can do, we can have our road bridge crews monitor parsons as it is being used as a temporary. If we see any potholes or distress in the roadway, we can have crews out there immediately to maintain the road as a detour.
>> which is already distressed.
>> I have been to that, joe and I this last week were out and we went down parson road andments that low water crossing area. It is something that we need to really look at as far as when you have flood event, that's a big deal. , the -- [inaudible] some improvements for the approach into that low water crops. I think it's something that we can look at. Joe, I guess as the judge stated earlier, if you and the person that spoke here this morning can kind of exchange phone numbers, things like that, I think that would be something that we can take up and [inaudible] as we go through this process. I think it's something that's very necessary. Thank you.
>> what kind of surface does parsons have?
>> I believe it's just [inaudible] a two course surface treatment on top of [inaudible] it may be another surface that we can put on it.
>> we will keep an eye on it. And try to get it in as good of shape as possible. If there are buses, trucks, additional cars, there will be additional wear and tear on it.
>> let me also suggest if we put an overlay on the road, we may have to wait just a few months for the weather to get warmer, typically we put an overlay on when the temperatures are 60 degrees and rising. It may be in April or may before we can lay down a new surface.
>> but if we were to do that now we don't think it would take.
>> right.
>> anybody else for citizens -- for this public hearing? Thank you all very much.
>> thank you for coming down.
>> motion to close the public hearing. That's number 19 on the court's agenda today. All in favor? That passes by unanimous vote.
Last Modified: Wednesday, April 2, 2003 10:25 AM