Travis County Commssioners Court
February 18, 2003
The Closed Caption log for this Commissioners Court agenda item is provided by Travis County Internet Services. Since this file is derived from the Closed Captions created during live cablecasts, there are occasional spelling and grammatical errors. This Closed Caption log is not an official record the Commissioners Court Meeting and cannot be relied on for official purposes. For official records please contact the County Clerk at (512) 854-4722.
Item 8
8. Consider recommendations and strategy to address bad odors at landfills in northeast Travis County and take appropriate action. As I indicated in my late Friday afternoon memo, my request is that we discuss this item today, that we have it back on the court's agenda for action next week. I try to indicate the reasons why. Basically the reason I think this action is important are these over the last 15, 16 months, we really have been going back and forth on the orders flowing from the landfills in northeast Travis County, from time to time I personally have wondered whether other landfills in different parts of the country have been confronted with similar situations and whether they have had any luck in -- any better luck in eliminating or substantially reducing these odors. To my knowledge they were not nearly as bad up until 15, 16 months ago, roughly the fall of 2001. I think that's what it is. And what I outline here are the different steps that I think should be taken. I try to indicate issues that each step will raise. I did run this by tom and john cool who are not with us today. They provided a little input, did a little work in number 8 there, what I say basically is in the previous steps one through five, I take the position that Travis County has a more active role working with resident, landfill operator, anybody else who wants to assist in this matter. Number 8 questions whether it would make a lot more sense for us to contract out with whatever work we think ought to be done. That was not an option that I considered initially, but after thinking about it, after somebody else recommended it, and I think it was one of our staff people, it may well make sense for us to do that. It really depends on what steps we think ought to be taken. The other thing is what I have in mind next week is for us to decide who from our staff -- who from maybe the residents, the landfills, will make up the committee that will spend I'm guessing three to five weeks. I suggested 30 days -- three to five weeks to go through these steps to try to figure out in a sort of declaratory manner whether there 0 r other steps that we have not taken that others have, whether those steps have produced better result, what those steps cost, whether it would make sense for us to try to put those in place here, how we would go about doing it if we decide to do it and basically us doing it. The other party I did not mention is to the extent possible we should try to bring in the state regulatory agency. John tells me they have a new piece of equipment that they believe is good, maybe state-of-the-art in detects odors, the source, et cetera, so if they've done a whole lot of work all right, then rather than reinventing the wheel, maybe we ought to try to make them part of the effort, piggy back them. If they can do it. I'm pretty wide open on where we go from here. This just seemed to me to be a critical step for us to take next. The other thing is if you can put detectors in various locations to help you determine the source, that would help. You know, that's always come up the other thing is whether we like it or not, the closed Travis County landfill is in northeast Travis County, too, and it may well contribute to the problem. We need to try to figure out if that's so, and if we contribute, and if so, what will it take for us to address our part? Based on what I hear from staff, every indication we have had so far from our consultant, and other people in the know, if we contribute, not a big contributor but...
>> but nonetheless.
>> : but nonetheless, right. So my thinking was lay out the different steps, I think that I have probably mentioned these to different people over the last two, three months anyway, residents, landfill operator, everybody who will talk with me about the problem and what ought to be done but I had not mentioned it to members out of commissioner's court. I did give commissioner Davis a copy of my draft probably about ten days ago. And I do think it's important for him to be present before we take action. So what I'm hoping today is that we get feedback from those who want to provide it on what I propose here, if you've got something completely different, now is the time to lay it out, give ourself as week to think about it and then come back next Tuesday and try to figure out what to do. The other thing is that these questions really come from not my claiming to possess any expertise in the area, but issues and concerns that i've heard us raise over the last 16, 17 months, and some of this may be covering the same territory that we previously covered, I mean, I just think that we ought to make one comprehensive run at trying to address these odor problems. And if we can, we fix them. If we can not, at least we know we cannot.
>> I don't know if I have another plan because I don't. It's really more we could also over the next week go through the same process that katy just did related to her department on the previous item and that is if we ask county staff and depending on the number of county staff to devote what may be a considerable amount of time and attention to this project, be it three week, four week, five weeks, whatever, something is going to fall by the way side and I would like to know what that way side is going to be. And depending on what people are assigned to this, it's going to take away from other kinds of projects and this is a concern that's been raised by staff of they're only x amount of folks and there are other things that this commissioner's court has on their agenda. In fact we've got one coming up on item number 10 there's a lot of stuff that tnr and coin auditor's office has to do and I would like to have some sense and what amount of time certain folks would be asked to do and what projects get bumped be@ause of that, because we need to have a full awareness. I'm not saying we shouldn't do it. I'm just saying there needs to be awareness that something may be put on hold or shelfed or dropped completely in the work plan.
>> I'm thinking that tom cool and jim knuckles should remain involved because they've been working on it. Maybe another person at tnr at joe's discretion. The other thing is it may well be that the county needs to contract for some assistance and in joe, john and tom could put their heads together to try to figure out what that would be in cost between now and next Tuesday, it would help to know. But I agree, what impact this is having on your work plan is what you -- where you're going, right?
>> yes, sir.
>> okay.
>> and I just wonder also in terms of giving some of the outside assistance since we are one of the players out there owning a closed landfill ourselves of whether we need the independence of some outside assistance here, as opposed to it essential our own people signing off, not that there is anything untoward there, but it's just perceptions means a lot and whether we need also the appearance of some independence here in terms of some thought as to what's going on with our own landfill.
>> okay. Anybody with ideas, please come forward now. And if you give us your name, we'll be happy to get your comments.
>> we are going to make a gent statement on behalf of the neighborhood, then we would like to hear from the landfill representatives before the rest of the neighbors speak. We have had enough. We do not support this proposal. It's too late. It is not our problem to solve these technical issues. We will not collaborate on more studies of known problems. We are worried about our health. You have an obligation to protect us. We see this as a stall tactic to set the stage for contracts. We have given you hundreds of pages of documents regarding not only odors, but toxic waste and inappropriate land use. We are tired of talk nothing has happened, we are being harassed with subpoenas and government officials with tceq. We want no more expansions, we want the landfills shut down. We want your support, do we have it?
>> okay. I don't think we have done steps 5 and 6 of my outline or step 7. And I haven't seen anything to indicate to us that Travis County has the authority to close the landfills down. Now, and we've gone over this back time and time again with the county attorney's office trying to figure out what authority we have, no direct authority over landfills in response to commissioner Davis' request, we're looking at other statutes to try to figure out what authorization under other laws there might be. I don't know that we've gone through this. Now, I don't know either that Travis County is now in a position to take any kind of regulatory action based on the authority and evidence. Now, I have attended a whole lot of meetings and heard a whole lot of stuff, in response to the questions that you asked, the reason I think this is reasonable is I don't think it's been done, especially with Travis County taking an active role and the thing here is that Travis County would take a more active role on the front end. What we have done up to this point is to look at the complaints from residents and kind of demand that the landfill operators address them. And what they have come in and said is that we have done our best to address them. We have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars, here is what we've done, monitoring wells, and some other steps, and that's why I came up with the idea of what are they doing in other areas where they have bad odors at landfills? What remedies have they put in place to work better than the remedies that have been put in place eight here? And up to this point I think Travis County has asked the questions, has done what we thought we could under the circumstances, but I don't know that our role has really been as active as it should have been or could have been. So that's my take on where we are. Let's hear from some of the others.
>> I would like to ask you this question. I don't know whether this microphone is on or not.
>> it's on.
>> I would like to find out if you have consulted first with the attorney general's office to find out what authority you have and what authority the state agencies have to close this landfill. Has that been done? The other thing is you've got limited staff as i've heard here from miss Sonleitner about devoting lawyer talent to this project. Have you considered going out and employees under contract some environment lawyers who might have better access to what can and cannot be done legally? Has that been done? Have you considered that.
>> I don't know whether tom has consulted with the ag or not on this matter.
>> not the attorney general, we've had some discussions with tceq.
>> who are the lawyers for tceq?
>> you mean their in-house lawyers that do their -- they have -- of course they have lawyers that handle the permitting side, they have lawyers that handle the enforcement side so it depends on...
>> from the commissioner's court perspective, we typically ask the legal advice from the county attorney's office. When we deal with the state regulatory agency, they've got their own lawyers and they tell us basically, when we talk with environmental staff, we assume that they have chatted with their regulatory lawyers.
>> well, I understand you assume that, and that -- that I probably would do too, but I'm asking now why not go to the attorney general's office? It seems to me like they probably have exposure statewide to these problems where you're limited to one county. Your idea of pursuing what has been done in other counties is a good one, but by the same token, our attorneys need to be finding out if the attorney general's office can supply them with some information that may not know or have access to, and also...
>> what question will we ask the ag?
>> what authority the county has. I have no problem with asking that.
>> yes, sir, I think you ought to ask that, you said you didn't know, you tried to find out if had you the authority to close the landfill.
>> I told you we have been advised we don't have that authority.
>> let's find out in the attorney general might have a difference of opinion.
>> on whether the county has a difference of opinion. Make sure we have your address because if that answer is uncertain we can ask the ag. It's certain, though, we may send the same information.
>> I gave you my address earlier. I'm with the park springs neighborhood association, my address is 19218, look wood road, manor, Texas.
>> 78653?
>> yes.
>> okay p.
>> I would like to have a copy also of whatever you send him, if you don't mind.
>> we just need to say upfront in terms of get f giving any kind of the opinion out of the attorney general's officer it's not like trying to get an open request. In terms of getting a quick response out of them, they have certain guidelines but it is not overnight.
>> I already know the answer anyway.
>> good morning, judge, commissioner, tom, my name is mark mcafee. As you know very well a lot has been said over the last year plus on the northeast landfills. Also during that same period a huge amount of discovery occurred and what started largely as an odor fight has propertily expanded. We've spent days searching files of the tceq. We, your constituents have sued to have information released from a lawsuit in which waste management is the defendant. And because of the importance of this data that the public health -- to the public health, the judge ruled in our favor. This information has been shared with you all at length, and, yes, some of this has to do with odor, but let me say emphatically that this is the least of my concerns. Toxics and huge expansions are of greater concern to me. One week ago a jury in san antonio awarded a $23 million judgment to the family of a young girl who developed leukemia from living close to a landfill. Benzene was cited as a major component of the gas -- of the gasses that this girl was exposed to. High levels of benzene as we have repeatedly expressed down here have been found in this landfill. I do not know that much about the san antonio landfill. I suspect that ours is much, much greater last month Austin sierra, the publication that is put out by our local chapter of the sierra club had an article about the toxic waste. In this article they say unline pits an trenches receive anywhere from 22,000 to 60,000-tons of industrial waste in solid and liquid form including around 21,000 55-gallon drums m some of this is what is now classified as hazardous waste. The numbers represent a surprisingly wide possible range th is because most of the records have mysteriously disappeared and nobody seems to know anymore how many times the pits were filled with liquid or exactly what type of waste was received. End of quote. These numbers translate to about 2 million to 5 million-gallons of waste. Now, as was mentioned here earlier in testimony. There's over 196,000 children in Travis County and how many live downstream and drink water, derived from the colorado river your number one responsibility is to protect the public health we think an exhaustive and thorough study is long past due and this means water samples, this means sediment test, this means core borings and, yes, this also means air tests. We know from letters that we've received that at this point in time they are diverting system of their most knox shows waste streams from this landfill to other landfill, so one of my concerns when we start testing for odors is that we're going to get an unrealistic assessment of the odors in this area because they are diverting these waste streams to other locations at this point. Other locations probably that either already have gotten huge expansions approved or that are not even about to request huge expansions. So it's -- I'm concerned that the shell game -- a shell game will be played and we will not get a true test. So I would urge you to do tests that would show a more thorough history of what this -- what is in this site. It is time for the county with or without the tceq to get to the bottom of this and until you get to the bottom of this to sponsor any expansion would be wrong. And on a personal note, and you guys know i've been here most every single week for a long time, I have -- I'm going to be on a one week vacation next week and I respectfully ask that if this could be delayed to the following week, I would sure appreciate it. Thank you very much.
>> so are you asking us not to worry about the bad odors...
>> no. I'm just saying that to test for odors only is not what I think should be done. I think a thorough, thorough get to the bottom of this kind of testing should be done, you know, they jumped all over the barton springs issue here and the mean -- antesame time we're over here with one of the largest toxic landfills possibly in america and I think it's time for -- if not for us, then for the children and their children to get to the bottom of this. The half lives of these chemicals are very long. They will be in our environment for a long time.
>> okay.
>> so I'm all for testing. I'm for thorough testing.
>> well, testing is only one part of my proposal. What do you test for, how do you test, what do you test with? Where do you test? And then basically what conclusions could you reach? Second part of that whatever conclusions you reach, you go ahead and do those, and hopefully the conclusions would point toward a remedy, and either you can address this problem or you cannot. But I'm just thinking that now the time -- now is the time for us to decide finally whether we can fix the problem. Now,...
>> and I guess I'm trying to classify the problem as not being an odor -- an airborne problem, it's airborne, water borne, it's moving and not just moving above ground.
>> this is a limited posting based on the odor, the reason I did that is I had a four part item that became five parts and let's add to this anything you have in mind. I thought the bad odors thing would be simple but it would be in response to the complaints that we've been getting, the e-mails have sort of expanded, but up until recently 90% of the e-mails really dealt with the bad odors and the fact they were not being addressed. So my thing is, okay, what are we doing and what else can we do? What is the county doing? Should the county try to play a more active role? It was to address those concerns. As I it turns out that is not as simple as I thought.
>> the number of the complaints that you get from the mass of the neighbors are going to be on that kind of a level. If you look back on my testimony you'll find that most of it has concerned the toxic nature of the landfill and not the odors.
>> but you're not saying don't do these bad odors, you're saying doing odors plus?
>> do it all.
>> good morning. My name is dora williams and I'm from the lbj neighborhood. First and foremost I wish to thank you all for allowing us to come again before this court regarding the important landfill issue that is still pending before you. Over the past year, especially, and in working with select committees, I am sorry to still see that after our pains taking efforts to draw this issue to a successful resolution, we so far still remain fruitless in this effort to reach our goals. Actually, what has happened so far is not the positive result we expected and with all the working committees workshops, we are still walking away with no satisfaction or end result, just more talk. This group's main focus here today before this court is to reiterate our deep, deep concerns once again, at what we have come to know as an extremely vicious cycle. What is needed here is action now. Because this court still hasn't revealed a positive outcome. In closing, I must tell you that as a concerned citizen of Travis County, to you, please help us end this nightmare by taking what is said to heart here today to help reach a successful conclusion. Again, thank you for allowing me to bring this very important statement before this court.
>> thank you.
>> it would help us to mow what it is that you think we could have done that we were authorized to do.
>> well, in -- in my opinion it takes all of the efforts that we can pool our resources together, or our resources, to help test and specifically give conclusive reports on what are your findings that will help us to draw this to an end, a successful end.
>>
>> (one moment, please, for change in captioners...)
>>
>> good morning, middle mill my name is joyce best, live in northeast Austin. I appreciate the opportunity to speak about this item addressing the odor problems in Austin as a result of the wmi and b.f.i. Landfills. Unfortunately this item is at least one year too late. Why were these measures not suggested last year at this time when my neighbors and I were protesting before this court. In addition, dozens of people protested at the meetings of the committee discussing the solid waste sight ordinance. But since only one person on that nine member committee represented the neighbors who were being victimized, our concerns were given low priority, so that the rest of the county could continue to enjoy cheap garbage rates. In early 2002, we received the results of tceq's air monitoring of the contiguous mega landfills, we were also told that wmi and b.f.i. Conducted their own air emissions tests. Who has seen the results of those tests and the supporting data. Certainly not the neighbors. If the county has seen them, they have not shared the information with us. I have great confidence in the landfill operators. I am confident for every remedy that may be proposed they will find a way to thwart or circumvent it. As far as where the odors are coming from you can strike the city of Austin's water and wastewater operations from their list. 13 months ago in January of 2002 at the time when we were experiencing odors, neighborhood representatives met with city of Austin wastewater personnel, took a tour of the system in question, visited each lift station, lifted the covers off, smelled, we talked onsite with a representative of the u.s. Filter company that checks the system. There were no odors anywhere in the system. Immediately after that, we drove with the city personnel by the b.f.i. Landfill. It was a warm winter day, the odor was unbearable. I do not want my city tax money or my county tax dollars spent on a red herring investigation of the city wastewater system. I suppose the produce company will have to fepd for itself. The landfills claim to have hired experts to investigate the odors, tceq documented over 700 odor complaints during the last 18 months. The vast majority of these complaints indicate that odors occur primarily between the hours of 6:00 p.m. And 7:00 a.m. Last week b.f.i.'s attorney announced to the neighbors that the inspectors who went to the b.f.i. Site experienced no odors. Of course they made their visits between the hours of 9:00 a.m. And 11:00 a.m. We are not experts, but even we can figure out why they didn't smell any odors. These landfill operators demonstrated that they don't care if it stinks in the rest of Austin, as long as they can stray enough misters to keep it from stinking on their landfill property. We are still unable to find out the exact chemicals used because they are trade secrets of the manufacturers, so we don't know what we are breathing. This is a proposal for more talk before any action occurs. It's too late for that. We've already endured more than taxpayer citizens should be expected to experience. The citizens are the victims here, not the lapped fills. Landfills. Do not ask us to spend more of our time and energy trying to deal with a problem that we did not cause. Make those responsible solve the problem or shut down their operations. At the very least, join us in opposing any expansion of these giant operators who have demonstrated they care only about profits. Thank you.
>> so your recommendation to us today is the action that you would like to see is just opposition to expansion?
>> well, that's certainly a primary part of it. I have no objection to pursuing all of these other things, except as has already been pointed out, extremely expensive proposition, it was dependent on certain weather conditions, certain times of the year, certain waste extremes that the land -- waste streams that the landfills are taking in, all of those variables can make it extremely expensive to pursue some of the things that have been proposed.
>> but what will the Biscoe proposal cost?
>> that I can't -- I can't answer. I can tell you from assessments that we have made with looking at air quality 7 evaluations, that it can run I have r air quality evacuations, that it can run thousands of -- evaluations.
>> by the way, I would not think of leaving residents out. At the same time, I don't think it would be truthful for residents to serve and try to ismment this proposal if you don't think you ought to. Ismment. What I have learned is that the more inexclusive -- inclusive we are, the product the -- the better of product. That was why I made the recommendation that we would all try to collaborate. If I have included people who don't want to participate, that doesn't bother me at all. In the end, though, I think as a governmental entity, whatever we do, even if it is to say, sam, we reject this proposal because it's a waste of time, we do it in behalf of residents of Travis County, I thought what I was doing was responding really to a consensus of opinion that I heard from not only concerned citizens out in northeast Travis County, but other residents in the county who asked me what are you all doing, what's the county doing, why not this, why not that. A lot of the recommendations made sense. I tried to put them all in a proposal, bring them to the court to get action. And in doing that, also, my thinking was try to include everybody who has shown an interest in this and even those who cannot make -- there ought to be a way to get that input in a memo that I sent out I said responses welcome, e-mail me, come to court, send a letter, telephone, leave a message, anything like that. I mean, I --
>> we have certainly distributed that and I'm sure that we will hear from a number of people who are not able to be here today.
>> okay.
>> judge, could I get clarity on something that you said. You mentioned that you all had done a site visit to the city's wastewater stuff and pulled up the --
>> we actually contacted --
>> could you -- when was that again?
>> this was in January of 2002, I will have to go back and look on my calendar.
>> I was trying to get the dates --
>> January 9th.
>> we are talking about more than a year ago.
>> this was at the -- if you go back and look at the data, that was at a very significant time as we have indicated in the winter months, January through March, seems to be a very significant time for odors.
>> when you mentioned that you had driven by the b.f.i. Site and the smell was unbearable, are you also saying that that was in that same time period of January through March.
>> it was that same day, we were with the city of Austin person.
>> that would be before the extra things that have happened in the year related to the extra wells being drilled, all of the stuff that's been done, that was before any of those things had happened.
>> the issue is whether or not the city of Austin wastewater treatment plant is at fault, that was the issue that I was addressing.
>> I'm just trying to keep the time frames straight -- [multiple voices]
>> we do not believe that is the source.
>> okay, thank you.
>> miss english.
>> good morning judge and commissioners. My name is trek english. There's several problems here. We don't mean to be angry and not want this study of the odors, but frankly we were here for almost a year on a monthly basis asking you all to do something. And you kept telling us you had no authority to do anything on the odor problem. We had meetings as a swac, that little group, and they also smell it because we were at the satellite office and people were actually meeting while there was stipging. Nothing was -- stipging, nothing stinking, nothing was done. Representatives of the county were there at the time. Frankly, for you to wait 15 months later, and come up with this idea of studying the odors now, especially in view of what happened in the last month where you got this -- this violation for problems at the county landfill, I personally feel that -- that you are no longer neutral on this matter. You cannot be objective enough to deal with this matter. You are part of the problem as you -- I'm actually quoting you. You are saying I'm part of the problem therefore we are going to study it.
>> I'm not suggesting that we study it now.
>> well --
>> I suggest that we explore options that if we find one that we have not put in place here now, then basically we ismment it owe implement it and see if it's a fix.
>> well, I think before you do that, you should ask yourself -- [multiple voices]
>> who runs them? Well, I understand that, judge, but I think you still need to go back and see of these other landfills that have had odors, who is running them, who are the operators that are running them?
>> I mean, that will surface.
>> yeah, it will surface, so maybe it's a pattern whereby these landfills cannot run their -- their site properly, mainly because of the obscene profits that they try to make at bare minimum cost. That is, you know, that is the problem. I don't think we need to spend time and money to come up to that conclusion, which is already here.
>> what's the remedy then?
>> the remedy is they cannot expand because if you shut it down and you close it up and you put lots of dirt on it and a cap, then maybe you can control the odors.
>> okay. So the remedy is to oppose expansion.
>> the remedy is opposing expansion because look what's coming where my arrows are, that's the landfill, this is coming -- sniewnd the existing permit, though, these landfills have additional years.
>> we know that.
>> the bad odors are there right now.
>> we know that.
>> if we have reasonable to believe that if we do nothing, but oppose expansion, the bad odors will wait.
>> no. But at this point, you have an agency that is dealing with that and basically they are not on our list. So -- so they are going to have to step up their -- their program because they are the ones who told us we are not going to fine them and we are not going to fine a violation until they put all of this in place. They never even wanted to come to our homes the whole time it was really bad. And they waited until the spring of 2002 when a lot of these remedies were put in place. And told us, see, it doesn't smell. And we said, no, it still smells. And it still smells today. And they say, we don't know what to do. But I think they should do the research. I just don't think we should be the victims at the same time as we are the culprits. We didn't cause it. They did. They should --
>> I'm hearing a chorus of complaints from residents. And especially those here today. That you have been and are unhappy with what the state has been doing. And is doing. And insist that the county do more. I have heard that repeatedly, right?
>> yeah, you have heard it for a year. But we stopped saying it because you didn't do anything. Not you personally, but the county didn't step up. You did listen to us a lot. But you didn't actively go out and try to find out if there were a remedy six months ago.
>> I disagree with that. The other thing is that while you all are frustrating with meetings, if you add up the number of meetings that you have been to about landfills over the last 15 months, I guarantee you it will not be 50% of the ones that I have been to. In addition to numerous meetings with the residents out there, I have met with the landfills, one on one, with county staff, at various other times, and with other people who had an interest in environmental matters. Now, I'm really here to -- I'm getting mixed signals. The landfill problem came to Travis County under the bad orders umbrella. And we have worked more than a year to try to address them. But I agree with residents and landfill operators that these orders are still there. At the same time, in fairness, I really think if the landfills had been able to remedy the -- these orders, they would have done so. Those orders to choose from, to come on down, without trying do it. In my view, I don't think anybody in Travis County knows what the remedy is. If so that person ought to step forward. Somewhere in this country, there is hundreds of landfills, some community has not faced a similar problem and been able to have much more success in fixing it. And -- and now we can't show [inaudible], if we could, that would be another option. Travis County cannot, if there's any doubt about that -- we will [inaudible], but I thought my proposal was kinds of simple in that Travis County would take the lead and proactively try and identify landfills with similar problems that fixed them. What their fix was, trying to figure out what it would cost to bring that same fix here. I'm not the one who would be doing that, so my advise becomes irrelevant. I thought that having the residents as part of this would make them part of the solution and they would be there basically to confirm objectivity, independence, et cetera. And I'm --
>> judge, you are -- what you are saying makes a lot of sense. It makes a lot of accepts, you are absolutely right -- a lot of sense, you are absolutely right. There's only one factor that you are not looking at. We are talking about the two giants of the industry, worldwide, they have the most money, the most experts, the most lands fills, the most scientists, the most lawyers, you are telling us we are going to come up with a solution to solve the problems that they should know how to solve. If they -- if they have been in that business for so long --
>> look at more than that, though. I'm saying we ought to either find a way or we ought to [inaudible] after making a lot more effort than we have so far that a fix does not exist. See what I'm saying?
>> right.
>> I think that we need to know both. We need to know what the fix it and whether it will work here and try to do it, or we need to determine these problems cannot be fixed.
>> but it's going to be too narrow a scope to really come up with a good conclusion. I think the bottom line here is that -- is that we don't need two landfills in downtown Austin. Because these landfills are downtown whether you want to admit it or not. We certainly do not need three regional landfills in Travis County, because that's obscene by itself. There's no reason why you would accept three landfills in this county. I don't think there's probably another county in Texas that has three of them, with two giant ones being right next to one another. And I think that's the problem. And I think capco needs to deal with that, capco needs to come up with a solution as to what to do for the future capacity of their cogs or their region. That would be the best way to really address the problem.
>> if capco has the authority, I will sign the letter as Travis County judge asking them to use it.
>> well, I would like to see if there is an avenue there because that's certainly a matter that capco has never dealt with, it's been too complacent about having all of the waste from 22 counties come to these regional landfills on a yearly basis for 20 years now. That has to quit. 20 years next year. [inaudible] but that is basically the problem. We came here under the -- the -- the -- blanket of an ordinance. We didn't come here for any other reason. But they are the cause -- I will give you an example. On the 31st of January, they had visitors to the landfill, we were meeting with them. Trying to have some kind of truce with them on certain issues. They were -- we know they were on their best behavior because we were coming. So the landfill had to be I am peculiarable. The next day -- impeccible. The next day other visitors, we didn't find out until two or three days ago. However, if you look at the complaints on the 31st it stunk all over the neighborhood, literally stunk terrible all over the neighborhood, yet you know they had to really go out of their way to make everything work properly. The problem is they can't even have a little crack or a little lid off or whatever it is, you know, it stinks for miles. You can't even breathe on 290. That's the problem. Just little bitty things that cause such a problem it's not funny.
>> so instead of the Biscoe plan, I have heard the expansion objection, the close the landfill, or landfills and what else did we think about doing?
>> [inaudible]
>> exhaustive, thorough tests.
>> you can look at all of the causes, all of the causes --
>> [inaudible - no mic] [multiple voices]
>> wait a minute. Look how many permits for special wastes they have taken. When I mean special waste that's means hazardous types of special wastes, different categories, you would need to look at that over the last 10 years and see what's if her meaning down there. Fermeanting down there.
>> how long have we had three landfills in Travis County?
>> how long in Travis County? For probably 30 years, you were there first, when you closed the -- the [inaudible - no mic]
>> no, no, no. The b.f.i. Landfill opened when you closed, tds came in afterwards. You know, I -- I have to tell you two little anecdotes here. One of them is that you said something about the who is the legal counsel for tnrcc or tceq or whatever, that's mr. Norton. Mr. Norton is a general counsel for tceq. Strangely enough, before being hired by tceq he worked for waste management in houston.
>> [inaudible - no mic]
>> no many, many years. That's one of them. Number 2, another thing that I found out, a representative for b.f.i., Mr. Martin, was the representative for waste management for many, many, many years. Most of the '90's. Guess what? He led the team that moved the airport to bergstrom. I wonder why. I can make a conclusion here for you, but I will let you think that one for yourselves.
>> commissioner daugherty?
>> trek, how many days out of a month do you think that the odor is really what most of us would consider intolerable?
>> intolerable? Depends on how much equipment is crack, not working, diluted or whatever, we have an odor almost all the time somewhere around the landfills. If you go by the first six months, the odors were -- were probably on a daily basis. In the last six months --
>> on a daily basis, like every day.
>> every day, yeah, every day it was out there, it was on [multiple voices]
>> depending on the winds. The weather really dictates a lot of the problems because if it's still, you get a smell that you can't get rid of. I do honestly believe they have no smell, the landfill. I mean the canisters are working wonderful over there, they neutralize everything. But I think that we have migration. If we don't have migration, then I would like to know how those gases get two to three miles away from the landfill and smell. So nobody has ever tested the creek. The gases. That's where they like to lie right into the creek.
>> well, I know how frustrated you all are to come down here. I really do. And personally, I am not for the expansion of the landfills, if they could stop the odor, I would be. If they could stop the odor, then I would continue to work on the toxic and do whatever it would take to do that. But to me the theme that really makes this an issue for me, and I said it the first time that I sat up here, no one, nobody in this community would want to tolerate what you all have to tolerate. [ applause ] you know -- [ applause ] -- you know that they are trying, I'm not saying that b.f.i. And waste management is not trying.
>> I agree with you.
>> because if they could make this thinking away, let me tell ya, they don't like dealing with you all any more than some agencies in this town like dealing with me. So what I am -- what I am after is if we can't remedy that problem, I am supportive of going to this agency. The county from everything that I know, I will continue to wait until the legal people get back with us, we are sort of bear hunting with a switch. We can get out, we can be a problem, we can get out, continue to monitor, do all of the things, basically be a nuisance to them, just like, you know, you all are. For good reason. I mean, if I lived out there, I mean, you bet, I would be up there at the microphone just like you are every week. Do I think that we are going to find an area in this country that has similar situations? You bet. I mean, because it's one of those deals where garbage stinks, that's all there is to it. I can leave garbage parts in my garbage can in the house for four days and it gets my attention.
>> but that --
>> I can't imagine 200,000 tons or whatever it is that gets put out there on a daily basis. I mean it is understandable. I would love to be able to tote 100 people at a time in a couple of buses out there, from all over the city and say, this is what this group of people have to live with. You know what? We have to put garbage somewhere and your garbage is going to cost $25 more a month for each one of you because we are going to have to shut this thing down and we have to move them somewhere. Do we all know that there's an issue in this community with two huge -- absolutely, tray.
>> why should it cost you $25 month. More.
>> there's probably a point where people say you know what, from economics, unfortunately they have boards, shareholders, whatever that says, you know, you all have a feud fiduciary responsibility to us as well. So if I'm asking somebody to do that, I may go to them and say you know what, you have got to move, that's a costly thing to you, but you know what, everybody in the community goition have to pay for it -- is going to have to pay for it. Because you small group out there shouldn't be the resip yernt of the odors -- recipient of the odors.
>> I didn't mean to interrupt you on the amount. What I don't understand is we are the richest county of the region and yet we cannot afford to have our waste shipped to other county and all of the other poor counties are shipping their waste here and they can't afford it. How do they do it and we can't do it?
>> trek, I think that you probably, hey, figures, what's the old adage about, you know, figures don't lie, liars figure. That kind of deal. You know, give me all of the statistics you want I mean and I'm basically I'm going to become anestizied to that. The issue here is that you all are living in conditions that is not acceptable. We should not do -- we should not force you all to do that. I will do whatever it takes, if these people cannot stop the odors, then I will not vote for an expansion, can I close them? Most likely not. I mean, they have -- you all know that they have got, you know, 8, whatever, 8, 11, however many more years that it takes. I would like to do something that you all can live out there for 8, 10, 11 years, if we are not going to be able to close them, I don't know that we can do that. Can I go and testify to tceq, can I get on the same page and say, you know what, whatever it takes in order to help these people, I'm willing to do that. You bet. I mean, I'm to go do that. If these -- if the odors can't be stopped. But this is a slow process. You all know that it is a slow process. It's -- going to tceq, going to the legislature, and you are right, hey, i've followed the stream of people that have come out of the big guys. [laughter] and I mean if anybody doesn't think that politics doesn't come into play here, then you're crazy, it does. That is unfortunate and unfortunate for the community to have to recognize and to realize that. I can't give you any great hope that we can do something immediately with this thing. But as long as you have got people that are willing, if I could sit down with them and say I just want to make sure that you all cannot do this, if you just financially just can't do it, it has nothing to do with the financial, it's just that you can't stop odors. I mean, when you put that much garbage out there. I don't know. But I'm still trying to do my home work to find out whether or not if you cover it every day, with two foot of dirt, if you do all of these things that, you know, that at least seem sensible to the laymen, I'm willing to examine and to go to them and say, here are the things that you got to do, because you can operate for the next 10, 8, 10, 11 years, however many years there are, that we all know that if I didn't do anything else 25% of the reading, I guarantee you, comes from landfill. I mean, you all do a masterful job of that. I try to read it and I read all of theirs. And I know that they are doing -- I know that they are working hard to do some things about this. But I don't want you to give up and I don't want you to think that it falls on deaf ears, but it doesn't. It's not with me and I don't think it does with any of the commissioners. Maybe I'm a little fresher with this thing since I haven't been here as long. But I will continue to meet with them, sit with them, say, you all know what I want, I say it in court. I've said it to each one of them when i've met with them. I'm not necessarily -- I don't want them to have to go out of business. If they can do their business where they can come habitat with you all. That would be the best. I'm not convinced that you can take and do away with odor, that's probably the side that I came down on the harshest whenever it comes to the landfill folks because I think they understand that I'm pretty resistant about expansion and that -- that is -- I want you all to know that because a lot of times we don't say anything, listen to you, they go god nobody even said anything, what are they thinking. But I felt compelled to tell you that and you all. I mean, I --
>> we really want to thank for you that.
>> you know -- [multiple voices]
>> you know what. But anyway, that's -- thank you for coming. I'm sorry that you all are having to deal with this. I'm sorry for these guys that they are having to -- because they are industry people. And I know a lot of them. And I don't think that they are people that insistly want to come out here and do something bad to this community. I mean, some of them go to work -- and they make their living that way. That's unfortunate. So I'm not going to throw rocks at them for that. That's not a reason why I should be upset with them because they are going to work and trying to do their industry -- they are trying to do their job. But that being said, I'm not going to be light on them with regards to what I expect and what I want to see done in this situation. So I know that we have still got work ahead of us, but I wanted you to know exactly, you know, how I felt. I do appreciate you on--
>> I really [multiple voices] appreciate your ability to express what you feel and make everybody feel like you are concerned. I really understand it. We are upset. I derstand, we understand that you have put a lot of effort forward. But we have co-habitated with them for 20 years, never gave them a rough time i. Been here since -- I have been here since '77 you never seen me once come to your court and complain about it. You can't say we have been pests and trying to put forward something that wasn't there. It's just that they have messed up and they know it. When it smells in your garbage, take it away as quick as you can. They can't do it. Still there, constituent rotting down there. They -- still rotting down there. They haven't taken it away. One final note is that has there been enough talk on have these landfills gone bad. Meaning because part of their landfills are old technology and because there is the possibility that their liners are leaking, there is not a lot of talk on whether or not this has happened, which is once again the importance of these testing. If they are landfills, that have gone bad with leaking liners or old technology, adding more trash is not a good idea. And these things can be found out through testing. Which the county does have the power to do.
>> I'm in agreement with the judge on -- this is not an overnight fix like, you know, I know that you all aren't looking for overnight fixes, you all are realistic enough to know that, but -- but I will -- I will work with them on this. I don't mind going to the operators. I think they would say fine, you tell us what the situation is, we will even participate, in payment. I mean, I think that I can go to the operators and say I need some help on doing the testing and the necessary things that we need to know. Maybe I'm the likely person to do that. I haven't been here long enough that I couldn't go through and say that you all know how I feel about it. I've told you in court.
>> do you think they will be biased? Don't you think they would be biased?
>> no, no, I'm saying, I'm looking for help financially to be able to do these tests. And I mean I'm -- hey, once we find the tests, I want as independent of people as -- as you can possibly have. No, I'm not going to go -- not going to get into the fox watching the hen house or fax in the hen house, no, I'm not going to do that. Now I'm talking about financially we are going to need some help in order to do the necessary things and some of the things that the judge has drawn up and I do think they want to work with us. I'm not convinced otherwise of that. And I will continue to -- to push that so you have my word.
>> well, I think it's true, you are absolutely right, they are trying to work with us, but I think it's too late.
>> okay.
>> I would like to say one last short thing here. That is that historically when you really look at landfills, landfills were in the center of Austin. And then at some point citizens and governmental bodies determined that, hey, this is not an appropriate land use any longer down here at zilker park or wherever they had been, all of these places they had been. They moved them out. They didn't move them in, they moved them out. We have applied materials directly across the street from these landfills. Samsung with their -- I don't remember, $4.3 billion something like that plants that they are putting in. Right next to the very, very, very close to these landfills. This is not an appropriate land use, whether they stop the odors, whether they clean up the toxics, this is no longer an appropriate land use for 7:00 miles from the capitol building in the state of Texas. Not in 2003. Certainly not with the expansion that they are wanting in 2004, it will be increase to be land filling in 2040 this close to the capitol building of the state of Texas. So close to the city center. We have a tax base here that is dying to be expanded, it's being held back by this big tumor, if you will, in the center of our very fast growing area. Pflugerville is one of the fastest growing areas in the entire state of Texas. Why did that skip over this area and move to Pflugerville. Because of this tumor that we have out in that area.
>> thank you.
>> thank you.
>> thanks, mark.
>> anybody else on number 8? That will be back on the agenda next week.
>> sir, I want to thank you, especially mr. Daugherty for being straightforward about this. Standing up and telling us what you believe and you feel and I am encouraged today to -- to motivate us and maybe motivate of your colleagues up there to try to find solutions to this problem. And I hope what you said about the industry is correct, however, I think that they are suddenly trying to intimidate us by subpoenaing people for depositions and most lay people have not had experience in giving depositions and it makes them most up comfortable, I think that's a subtle intimidation, but that's a personal opinion. Thank you.
>> excuse me, if I could just for a moment. I've heard two or three times about the subpoenas and I would like if I could to a few moments to address that. As you know we are in a lawsuit with Texas disposal systems over a situation that happened several years ago in san antonio. That case was scheduled for trial the week of February 10th. Right before that the judge continued it into April. At that time, tds presented us with a list of over 20 additional witnesses. These people that have been subpoenaed are on that list. We have no idea why the plaintiff put these people on the list, the only way for us to find out is to depose them. If they can get removed from the witness list, we have no reason to talk to these people under these circumstances. And i've apologized to a couple of them personally. We have sent them letters apologizing for them. But we are in a lawsuit for the tens of millions of dollars at stake and we have to defend the company. That's why they received subpoenas. Thank you.
>> can you identify fours the record.
>> steve jacobs with waste management of Texas.
>> steve, I am glad that you came forth on that. That was kind of disturbing to me. But it does -- I mean, now that you have told me that, I mean, I do understand why they got the subpoenas. I mean -- probably the last thing that they want to do is getting [inaudible] into the deal, I understand where you all come from on that.
>> anybody else on this item? We will have it on next week.
Last Modified: Wednesday, April 2, 2003 10:25 AM