Travis County Commssioners Court
November 26, 2002
The Closed Caption log for this Commissioners Court agenda item is provided by Travis County Internet Services. Since this file is derived from the Closed Captions created during live cablecasts, there are occasional spelling and grammatical errors. This Closed Caption log is not an official record the Commissioners Court Meeting and cannot be relied on for official purposes. For official records please contact the County Clerk at (512) 854-4722.
Item 13
Item number 13 is it to discuss program and time schedule for the new precinct 4 building. B is to approve contract award for construction of new precinct 4 office building ifb number bo 20171-mb to the low bidder, hutchison construction.
>> welcome, commissioners. We have before you -- [papers shuffling - audio interference] we want to provide you with savings and an efficient way to construct facilities. Last year the planning had started with -- this is a precinct 4 office building, and it is located in precinct 4 off of mckinney falls parkway. That is near burleson and 183. It serves that particular precinct, which is commissioner Margaret Gomez's area. This building will house -- [papers shuffling - audio interference] and the probation office, and a tax office. It will be be the first of our outlying tax offices where people will not have to come downtown, but the tax office and services of the county will go to them. The total project budget is $8,376,000, so about 8.4 million. We provided that for you in your backup. We want to provide you an update on the budget so you know where every dollar is going and that it is accounted for. We also have a schedule attached in that one page that provides the construction, the notice of receipt on the construction, when we believe the substantial completion is, which is nine months after that. We have a one month for possible weather delays and transition and move-in November the 3rd -- I'm sorry, November of '03. We do have some issues to talk to you about in terms of the permitting. And I think less lee is going to go into -- lesser antillesly is going to go into that. And there is another item that has to do with the city permitting. We continued with these buildings to work with our partners at the city. As you know, sometimes that can get a little cumbersome, but we're working with the staff to try to facilitate and come to some agreed upon process by which we can treat all the buildings in the same manner. So I'm going to turn it over to our director of facilities management, roger o'porie and less lee strickland, which is the project manager for this particular project.
>> thank you, alicia. I would like to comment about the spreadsheet which was just given to you. And I would like to ask the court to approve also the adjustment to our ffne. When we had the project early on and we just had a number, which was $200,000, for that, but with the development of the project, we know more about it, about how many rooms and all of that. Now we did some survey about our existing furniture, plus what we need as new furniture, and we have that provided to you on the spreed sheet, the next one. And it shows that we need to have about $366,000 of ffne, fixtures, furniture and equipment. And I would like to ask the court to approve it for this project. And I would like to ask lez lee to talk about the other issues.
>> we started the site plan approval process with the city of Austin with submittal of the site drawings back in the middle of June. That is normally a lengthy process, and we anticipated that in the project schedule. We started receiving the city review comments in late July and received some follow-up comments as we submitted updates through August. However, it wasn't until November, early November, that the city woke up and said, oh, yes, by the way, you need to have a restrictive covenant for unified development and management of drainage facilities executed before we can approve your site plan. And because you're a new water meter, which is a three-inch domestic water meter, is going to project beyond the existing water lines along the right-of-way, we will need you to execute small rec tank cue lar easement around that water meter so that we can have access to that for maintenance of the meter. Both are routine items and it's unfortunate that the city was late in advising us that we needed to execute them. Those are being posted together under a single item for your action next week.
>> and are those consistent with what the state of Texas, the federal government, the university of Texas, the mexican consulate, is that also what we require them to do as well? It's okay, I didn't expect you to know. We all know what the answer is, no.
>> I was wondering if it applied to the county and the city.
>> will that impact the schedule of the budget?
>> actually, they do affect the schedule by two weeks. We had hoped to have our site plan approval all wrapped up by the end of next week so that we could issue notice to proceed to the general contractor on December 9th. Because of the extra time involved in this process, the city requires a couple of weeks at their end after we get these signed documents back to them, we're now looking at ntp around December 23rd, which is Monday before christmas, not a real convenient time to begin a construction project. I can't say the architect is -- and the -- I can say they are trying every possible means to let the city -- give us the technical signatures on these items, but we don't know how that's going to play out and wanted to advise you of what looks like the more likely scenario at this time. But we're still trying to make it better if we can.
>> just so we are real clear about herding these projects through so there's not any delay at all, and certainly not on our watch, is it possible for either staff or the teblghts, all of us to work -- the architects, all of us to work together to herd these projects through the process so that we know and document at every place where the delay was and how long it took, how long it sat on somebody's desk, for instance? Because I know that we're going to be very serious, commissioner daugherty, about from here on out watching all of these projects very carefully so that there aren't any delays whatsoever. And we want these projects to come in at least on time and on budget, if not under budget and before time. That would be wonderful, a wonderful thing to do. But I want us to be really, really serious about bird dogging these projects and documenting and make sure that we know where the delays take place.
>> we need to get an interlocal in place with the city of Austin because we consistently talk about this, and yet we're not there yet. And we need to get to a place where we've got some kind of a master agreement about how all of our projects go through because other governmental entities are not dealing with the same issues we are, and at some point we need to either get an interlocal in place or we need to get asked that we get treated like every other governmental entity, which is not like we're being treated.
>> so the November '03 is the projected occupancy date includes the two weeks?
>> that's right, it includes the two weeks, judge. Because the duration of the construction is nine months. If we start -- if we start let's say in January -- nine months is the end of September and then we have one month probably here in transition and we can make it not by November, by the end of November.
>> these two things are fairly easy to do, but it's just that the notice would have been nice.
>> the environmental reviewer actually signed off on her section of the review, and then realized she had done so in error and had to call her project manager on her side and said oops, I didn't mean to sign off on it. It was kind of fumbled, frankly, at that end.
>> and you have a bulldog in roger. He's been pushing us all oink loing. So I'm a little disappointed in the city too because we were able to get this through pretty quick.
>> is this going to be consistent with what pat ford is working on for us? Waws the two weeks is important -- because the two weeks is important for us because they are in leased space and may be in temporary leased space in the meantime because of some other issues. So two weeks is a big deal. So as long as there's coordination with pat related to transitioning of our leases and getting out of the lease soz we can get over to the new building.
>> absolutely. And that -- and that's going to impact on the fy twoou on the one or two months -- '04 on the lease.
>> on the furniture estimate, in the existing railroad reuse category, who's department is that?
>> I can give you some background on that, judge. The column that's titled user request, that is the total amount of furniture needed based on the number of rooms and what the rooms are being used for. The existing to reuse was recommended by facilities management staff who reviewed detailed survey of conditions that were done by the users, and she reviewed them on site walking through making through making general observations. The furniture was rated good, which appears to be in good condition, functions well, fair, which is fair to poor in appearance, but still functional. And poor, which is poor in appearance and not functioning back when we thought we only had $200,000 to work with and knew that was not going to be enough to get everybody new desks, we stretched to see how we could make do. And under that scheme, it was proposed that desks that were still in good to fair condition could be reused. I'll just focus on the top line here, the desks, work stations, as an example of how we approached this. And that turned out to be about half of the 137 total desks. The other half were poor, 71, of them were poor and needed to be replaced. Of those 71 desks that -- 66 desks that we thought we might be able to reuse, two-thirds of them were only in fair condition and probably needed to be replace understand another two to three years -- replaced in another two to three years. So the reason we're asking that we replace all 137 of them now is to avoid the downstream costs where it's more productive to change out a lot of furniture or existing operations, and it also does do some wear and tear on the buildings when you're moving large things in and out. There may also be cost increases in the future. There is -- the assumption in this proposed total budget for ff and e is that we will buy used or refurbished goods for the systems furniture. That's a 50,000-dollar item there total for the project. We have 42 cubes to get. That could be -- could have been a little larger, but we found a good source with used systems furniture that will give us good quality and consistent appearance products. The other reason we looked at going to new as opposed to, say, going to the warehouse, currently what's available in the warehouse is a very small quantity. It's been picked over with some recent small projects, and I checked with julie this morning, for example, on desks. There may be two or three desks that are in fair condition. There are none that are in good condition. Those that go to the warehouse, they get picked up very quickly. Typically good items row saittate into the warehouse when we do conversions from desk type furniture to systems furniture, and we haven't done a large conversion project in awhile, which is the reason the warehouse stock is low.
>> so the fair to poor furniture is headed to the warehouse?
>> that's correct.
>> the good furniture we are --
>> yes.
>> and the off-shoot of the dot-com bust is that there is a very good used systems market out there for us to pick up excellent quality stuff for far what they originally paid for it.
>> our obligation to the state is to provide space for cscd. Does the space include furniture?
>> I need to find out on that.
>> we need to look at the particular agreement.
>> if you would let me know after today.
>> I'm sorry if I'm going to ask a question or two that you all might have already been asked. What is the recourse that the county has in the event that time is not met with 270 days?
>> we have liquidated damages at $1,300 a day. The 270 days for the contract term will be amended to include the eight county holidays, which will fall in the county term based on the expected notice to proceed date. We did not include those in the contract up front because we weren't sure when we were going to award and how many days would fall in there. So the actual term will be 278 days.
>> okay.
>> and that -- the recourse on that, commissioners, also, because we're going to suffer a monetary damage because if we don't finish the project by the time of the contracted days, then we're going to have an additional lease, so really there is a tangible value moneywise. And this can -- we need to make sure that the damage is not the penalty, it's just to recover our own damages.
>> sta also -- -- is that also -- what about -- what aspect is that -- in other words, it's 270 days plus eight, 278 days, then 30 days for bad weather allowance in there.
>> well, we always account for a weather delay because sometimes when you work on the outside before the shell goes up in the buildings, then everything is dependent on the weather.
>> right.
>> and we have in our contract about every month for five days weather, if it rains more than five days, then we start having to giving the contractor additional time to recover for the time lost during the weather days.
>> because that happened in October. With October being as wet as it is. So there is some wiggle room there with regards to the recourse.
>> that's correct.
>> is that objective or subjective? Who makes that call? If somebody comes out --
>> there's a language that says on weather delay, there's a section in there that says what kind of -- how many inches of rain and whether it's five days. And if it's 0.2 inches. If it rains that, that doesn't constitute one of those five days. If it rains above that, then it makes it one of those five days. So if we claim more than five days, more than that, then after that we're going to add additional time to the contract to recover for that delay due to the weather. [one moment, please, for change in captioners] daugherty,.
>> I mean, because I'm sure that you have encountered some of that, with having built projects in the past.
>> that's correct. But we -- these two things can delay the project. If it has an owner changes to the project, that will --
>> that was a question of mine.
>> we are waiting -- we control our project to have minimum to zero changes because the -- the time we spent during the project, with the user, with the facility management, making sure the user and the -- and also with the architect, make sure that, you know, everything is there. So we don't want to do the owner changes during the crux like -- during the construction like a user might say I don't like thisa window here, I would like to put that window on the other side, well, tough luck at this time because we started the project, we started the project.
>> did we get the -- to interact with those kinds of decisions? [multiple voices]
>> probably a good example to use is windows, since i've heard about windows.
>> I think facilities management will take care of that, unless the user want to raise that issue even higher, yes, it goes to the court. But the point again is we want to make sure that we minimize any user and owner -- owner changes. The other issue can delay the project if you have a different site condition. Different site condition and I think it's going to be to a minimum, even new, because it's a new facility, bear in mind there's nothing right there can hinder the project, unless you start digging in there, it turns out to be different than the geotechnical report. Other -- you can't foresee conditions. If there's something that we did not think about in the renovation project, but with in project, it's a new project, there's no such unforeseen conditions. The other thing would be the regulatory with the court. I think the architects and engineers, did a good job making sure we comply to the codes and everything. But sometimes down the road a city of Austin inspector might come and say, well, I want this to be changed from here to there. That might cause a little delay in there, but we would like to control it very well because that's outside of control. If -- the [inaudible] regulatory is outside of our control.
>> I think that's the difference. Some things are within our control, some are not. But those that are within our control, such as the preplanning for a building, we ask all of the user of the building to come together and to do the planning from what they -- the kind of space they need. If they don't want to come, then I guess they need to sign something for us that said they have the opportunity, but they didn't take it. So we don't expect any change orders from them later.
>> that was part of the -- I think one of the improvements that we made in the process of building --
>> lesson learned.
>> is that the court indeed required that each of the occupants sign-off on the plans. And say, year, this is what I agreed to. So if there are changes, then that -- they have to come to the -- to the court. And we discourage them.
>> another point is the bidders also had an opportunity to talk about the schedule. In fact we did amend this bid to add an additional month, because of their concerns on the aggressiveness of the schedule. So the bidders also had an opportunity to give us feedback. Which we considered.
>> thank you.
>> sure.
>> the indian burial ground, that's unforeseen condition, which is happened to us before.
>> is there any interest in seeing the model again? Some of you have seen it before. We have it here. Would you like to see it, commissioner?
>> don't take the time for me. I'm more than happy to come up and you all can do that on my time.
>> okay. So the low bid is $4,365,000?
>> correct.
>> with the alternates it's -- I'm sorry, 4,546,591.
>> 4.5.
>> we still have a savings.
>> we still have a savings of about $1.4 million, even with increase in the budget as roger's request for ff and e and contingency.
>> anything else that we need to know about the bid? There is a protest, I know. But other than the protest, any other information that we need to hear from you today.
>> I just wanted to let the court know how aggressive and how hard staff worked on this project to make it happen. In my office we issued 177 sets of plans and specs, which is a record. We have never had that sort of interest. I think alicia mentioned the economy certainly had a role in this project for the low bid and the number of interests. We did receive 8 bids, which is very, very competitive. And of course hutchinson is a low bidder and we are making recommendation for award. Would you like for me to get into the protests a little bit?
>> do we know why the other 169 that indicated an interest earlier did not submit a bid?
>> a lot of those were subcontractors coming in looking at plans and specs. Some of those went out to the plan rooms. We have a habit of sending out dodge reports, all of the minority firms, associated general contractors, city of Austin, so we put a lot out there. But there's just a lot of interest.
>> what is the h.u.b. Participation on the recommendation?
>> we -- when we received the bids originally, hutchinson had about a 2% h.u.b. Participation, part of our h.u.b. Program is to -- to work with the contractors and try to increase that h.u.b. Participation. My staff spent a great amount of time last week working with mr. Hutchinson and the h.u.b. Firms in the community. As of today, mr. Hutchinson has turned in a notice of intent to do business with h.u.b.s at about 22%. He is still negotiating with a couple of others, so we are -- we are hoping that we might reach our goal of 30%, but right now we are about 22%.
>> we do have a goal to try to reach?
>> yes. The -- for commissioner daugherty's background, a little background on our h.u.b. Program, we have a -- we have an across the board 30% h.u.b. Participation goal. Other teent he like the city of Austin have -- other entities like the city of Austin have different studies that they have done. Our program is voluntary. The city of Austin you can get points for being a minority or a -- doing subcontracting. With the county we do not give any points for that. It's all voluntary, we have been very successful.
>> this says 28%, is it 22% or 28.
>> we are at right now 22%. He still is negotiating with two other, I believe subs, and we are hoping that it will go up to 28%.
>> okay.
>> excuse me, how do we follow up on that to make sure that it's a volunteer setting as far as h.u.b. Participation? How do we follow up on that to make sure that the prime, the general contractor actually does what they volunteered to say they are going to do? Is there any tracking mechanisms to ensure that h.u.b. Participation is actually bona fide? At some time frame during the processing and stages of the process and phases of the construction project itself, how is that done?
>> when the -- when the bidders submit their bids, they are supposed to give us what he is called a notice -- what is called a notice of intent. That is who they expect to subcontract with. After they are awarded the contract, then they start their final negotiations with those minority firms and they have a document that they send us and we have gotten that from mr. Hutchinson where -- where hutchinson shows the amount that he will be subcontracting with the firms. They sign-off on the agreement, we get that information. Then throughout the project, sylvia and jorge and my office work with the contractor who submits to us the invoices and reports to us how much he is actually spending with the h.u.b. Firms. So at the end of -- at the beginning of the project is an estimated amount that we will spend with h.u.b.s. At the end of the project, we can tell you exactly how many h.u.b. Dollars were spent on the project. Again, this is a voluntary program and with the addition of jorge, we will be able better to track that information for you and stay in contact.
>> is it possible for us to -- to keep a record as to how well they keep their word to us? And maybe have that as part of the criteria that we use to evaluate the -- them in the future?
>> we have the ability to -- when we award bids, to look at whether they are a responsible bidder and their past performance and commitment to us could be considered in that definition of responsible.
>> so by completion of the project, we should have some indication as far as the numbers and as far as the participation level of h.u.b. Subs, subcontractors in this particular construction project?
>> yes. And hutchinson has been very cooperative with us. He's made a very strong good faith effort and I see no reason why he won't -- he will not continue reporting to us those dollars throughout the project. He's been very cooperative.
>> [inaudible]
>> yes. We ask that we be given -- again it's voluntary.
>> but only on a voluntary basis.
>> you keep saying voluntary, this is the fourth or fifth time, I guess. In fact it is -- the 30% goal is county policy.
>> correct.
>> you are saying legally we cannot deny the contract if downtown meet it.
>> correct.
>> but there may be other reasons. For the denying the contract. The word voluntary means a whole lot of things. It is and has been county policy. It's an expectation, also, and we try to get firms to comply because we think it is the right thing to do. What's the evidence of 22% participation?
>> I have documentation of the agreements that mr. Hutchinson has with the subcontractors and the dollar amounts that they've agreed to provide. For example --
>> is it possible for the court to see those.
>> correct, yes, all of this is available to you. It's a notice of intent --
>> is now a good time to see those?
>> if you would like it.
>> thank you.
>> it tells exactly like on this one, this is the h.u.b. Contractors' sunrise commercial painting, he is going to be doing about $117,000 worth of painting for hutchinson. We have an electrical subfirm, h.u.b. Firm that's going to be doing about $600,000 worth of work. We have a landscape and irrigation contractor that's going to be doing about $74,000 worth of work. We have a glass and glazing company, minority firm, that's going to be doing $130,000 worth of work. We have an erosion control firm that will be doing about $4,000 worth o work. And we have a cabling company that's going to be doing about 41,000 worth of work. And I believe he's still negotiating on a concrete -- he has not mind up his mind whether he will be doing that himself or contracting that out. So we have this documentation, both the -- both hutchinson and the h.u.b. Firm have signed it as their cmitment to each other to do the work. Now, whatever agreement, legal agreements they have, we don't get involved in that.
>> we received that documentation when?
>> we received this information yesterday. Now, when he sent in his initial bid, he give an -- he gave an estimate, as I told you it was only 2%. Staff have been working with him to increase that and that's where we are at today.
>> but for the county attorney's office, do we have language in the contract that incorporates these commitments?
>> yes. We -- it's part of the h.u.b. Policy program and it's --
>> subcontractor support that is incorporated as one of several other h.u.b. Report payment forms into each and every construction contract.
>> okay. Will the protestant come forward? And if you will give us your name, we will be happy to receive your comments.
>> hi. Just introduce yourself.
>> good morning, my name is ben [inaudible], I'm the chairman of dustin metropolitan united black contractors association. This is our first time coming to the county to speak. On any issue whatsoever. And first of all, I would like to say that the h.u.b. Coordinator that you have, sylvia lopez, mr. [inaudible] and jorge have been very helpful, they have done a very good job. They received a set of plans for this project and we took the opportunity to make sure all of our membership had the opportunity to bid this project. That's why we are here. As you all know, you guys have a 30% h.u.b. Participation, but it does not have any ethnic goals. So it's very hard to -- to track, I am very impressed to hear that the commissioners and the judge is interested in knowing what the participations are, so far from what I have told it was 22%, but initially when we started talking about this, it was 2%. And knowing that a bunch of our members bid this job, it was very, very confusing to us that none of us, none of our members had the opportunity to -- to even come in and talk with hutchinson, [inaudible], low bidders. I was looking at some statistical information that was -- some contractors that was participating on this project. Again, I understand that there's no ethnic goals. But just to be fair on it, I would like to mention that all of the subs here have been mentioned, none of them is an african american contractor. It's very, very disturbing because -- because as I sid before, our members took this job very seriously. We made sure that a bunch of [inaudible] bid this job. We understand it's the low bid, but that's okay. We have been in the business a long time to understand the low bid. However, at a project of this magnitude, to be fair, I think you should be fair to all ethnicity. To look here and see there is no, none, african american participation on this project, [inaudible] to the contractor is disturbing. I understand mr. Hutchinson is still in the process of trying to negotiate, but we had the opportunity to talk to him prior to coming here and -- and he never said anything like that to us. So I'm not sure whether -- who he was negotiating with, but I'm very sure it's not an african american contractor. Mr. Brown is here, I will let him speak for himself. He's also one of the guys that bid on this job as a concrete contractor. He's tried several times to make contact with -- with hutchinson construction and have now been given the idea, the courtesy to come in and talk to them. However, we did receive -- information from hutchinson that went out and encouraged h.u.b. Contractors to [inaudible] and we did that. Then I thought we would get a call to come in and talk to someone to come in and negotiate and have an opportunity to negotiate. But so far we haven't had that. That's very discouraging. This is just, again, an opportunity to come in front of the court, for you guys to understand that -- that we are very sensitive to this issue. And it's very important that the court again as the lady mentioned, this is -- this is, you know, they don't have to do it. But, again, if you have a goal set, and don't have to do it, that's kinds of hard to understand. Kind of hard to understand. They do it if they want to. So I can understand why the contractor should come in, with 2% participation, I can't understand. Now, when we brought the issue up he went up to 22% in one day. He should have went to 22% to start with. As we speak, they are still not 30%. So you have a lot of room for negotiation. I'm just hoping that we can have an opportunity to sit down and negotiate, also.
>> I think that is -- that's what I'm hearing that it's possible for you to sit down and negotiate with mr. Hutchinson and see if there's, you know, where you would fit in to the whole contract. And I would not -- I mean, I support that kind of -- that kind of negotiation. I think that i've made my -- my goals pretty clear that I -- I believe that all -- everyone who lives in Travis County is a taxpayer and everyone ought to have access to -- to the services that we provide. Certainly contracts are one. So I mean I think it sounds like it's just one of those deals where if you and mr. Hutchinson sit down and try to negotiate something, that -- that is needed as part of the whole project to get this project done on time and in budget, then I think -- I don't think there's any -- there wouldn't be any problem to keep you from doing that.
>> well, I understand that and I appreciate that. But, again, you have to have an opportunity to negotiate.
>> of course.
>> and --
>> doesn't that take a phone call, just a phone call --s. That's what I said before, ma'am, we have done that. Called his shop and tried to do that. He has already done that himself. We have talked to mr. Hutchinson outside in the hallway. And the conversation did not lead to us believing that we will have that opportunity.
>> can I ask a technical question?
>> is there a -- if I'm hearing you correctly --
>> yes, sir.
>> -- the 22% total of h.u.b. Participation does not include any african americans and black folks?
>> that's correct.
>> now I guess my question is, you have already approached a low bidder, hutchinson?
>> that's correct.
>> and what was the response?
>> well, his response was -- well, you know, I get 200 bids and I have to go with the low bidder. Well, again, we will talk to his shop, we asked them out of those 200 bidders, how many is african american? Oh, we don't know that. We don't have a way of knowing that. Well, that's not true. Because most of our african american contractors, when we pick a job, we identify ourselves on the big tab, on the big sheet, and we actually tell you, who we are certified with, the city of Austin h.u.b., The certification number, if you want to check up on it. So -- so as we speak, sir, I will hope that we will have that opportunities to sit down and negotiate.
>> let me ask purchasing. Purchasing, for the subcontractors, the ones within the 22% range, at this point, any of these african americans firms within the 22%, I want to substantiate --
>> no, no. It appears to be hispanic male firms.
>> all hispanic feel firms?
>> uh-huh. -- all hispanic feel firms?
>> -- male firms.
>> I believe so. One white woman. One hispanic female.
>> one hispanic female.
>> the rest are hispanic males and one white woman.
>> all right. I guess my point is, that what is mr. Hutchinson's response to the persons approaching him as far as trying to get subcontracting business with this particular contract?
>> mr. Hutchinson is here.
>> I think he needs to come to the table.
>> good morning, commissioners.
>> okay.
>> this is a very interesting situation.
>> all right. Can you explain to me what's been --
>> I'm sorry, sir.
>> could you explain to me what's been said --
>> yes, sir, I would like to.
>> I would appreciate that.
>> first of all, I would like to correct a couple of errors. Mr. Brown and I have spoke. Yesterday for almost an hour. Prior to today. And we discussed some of the similar things that we talked about out here in the hallway. So -- so mr. Brown and I have conversed, talked about what it takes to be negotiating on this project, what opportunity is all about. Opportunity comes in two areas. One is price and ability. Which is what this contract is being awarded on to any general contractors. Myself along with seven other general contractors bid this project. Each one of us, I believe, were capable of completing this project. We all had an opportunity. Our office received over 250 individual proposals. Each proposal that came across the fax machine was on a white piece of paper with black lettering. Not one of those proposals identified black, hispanic, woman, not one. We don't ask that question on bid date. We ask for the best price and the ability to do the work, which is the same thing that county asks of the contractors. What is the best price and do you have the ability to do the work.
>> okay. My --
>> when --
>> let him finish.
>> I'm sorry, sir.
>> go ahead, I thought that was your ending statement.
>> when a contractor gets into a negotiation situation with subcontractors, regardless of race, how they part their hair or what clothes they wear, those questions don't come into play. Talk about, again, two things. Price and the ability to do the work. Negotiations start with the responsible bidders. Who provide low prices on bid day. For example, concrete, our office received 12 individual concrete bids from 12 different reputable concrete contractors. Who all have equal opportunity to bid the same work for that project. Each price was different and varied. Varying as much as 100% between the low number and the high number. I'm going to be negotiating in the best interests of the county, and my company, as taxpayers, with the lower percentage of those 11 bidders, to negotiate the best possible product for the best possible price for the county. Mr. Brown's particular price happened to be the highest of the 12. That doesn't put me in a very good position, or any other contractor in a very good position, to negotiate with mr. Brown and leave the other 11 out of the mix. So the opportunity is always there. But you have to be in the right place for the opportunity to happen. Which means that your number has to be in the right section. On to answer your question the opportunity is always there to negotiate.
>> okay. But I guess my point, though, is --
>> I'm sorry, sir.
>> I guess my point is you came here with 2% to begin with. In other words, I think this is what the purchasing agent said, you came in with 2%, were you aware that we had a 30% goal?
>> yes, sir.
>> all right. You started out the process with 2% according to what I'm hearing here today.
>> once again, on bid day, all the fax paper is right. We don't necessarily know because bids aren't always identified as to whether they are a minority contractor or not, some are but very few. When on bid day, when the contractor has to turn their bid in at 2:00, we have to make a very quick determination of who our low numbers are, low qualified numbers are. If we recognize some minority and h.u.b. Participants in that process, or if we have gotten responses to our fax solicitations and our phone calls that we have made, then we are able to plug those percentage points in prior to turning our bid in, which is a very fast-paced product -- process to get the best possible number at the last minute in.
>> well, I guess --
>> on bid day, all we were able to identify is one minority contractor. Since that time, we have recognized that there are other minorities in the low percentage that we have been able to negotiate with. But right now as of this morning we have a total of 8 minority contractors, the total percentage of 23.92%.
>> okay. I heard 22%.
>> I'm sorry.
>> now I hear 28%. But what you are saying is 23.9%.
>> as of this morning, there is 23.9%. -- 23.92% in individual minority contractors.
>> so it's jumped from 22% to -- from what I heard from staff this morning, purchasing, to 23.9, within the -- within the increase from 22% to 23.9%, were there any african american bidding in this particular project?
>> sir, I haven't asked that question. I apologize. I didn't know that that was a criteria. And I do believe, to answer your question, I believe that there is one, what I have been made aware of. But I -- I'm not trying to be facetious, it's not a criteria for doing a quality job.
>> I think it is -- I don't know, in other words if you are saying that these persons that have came here before, I don't know what you are alleging there, you are saying african americans are not able to do good quality jobs.
>> that's not what I said.
>> that's not what he said, let's not go there.
>> that's not what I said.
>> I don't understand your statement. As commissioner Gomez said she was trying to reflect what's actually out there in society as far as doing business with the county.
>> yes.
>> of course if you leave african americans out, then of course then that's not a true reflection of what the real mirror is in society for --
>> I don't think anyone should be left out. But we have a purchasing process that is supposed to neutralize everything that we do, so that the taxpayers have the best service, quality work and the best price for -- for them on projects.
>> I'm not leaving anyone out, sir.
>> no. The purchasing process is intended to not leave anyone out for the color of their skin, their background, their religion or whatever. It's -- it all neutralizes, equalizes everyone on the process of -- of getting a package, submitting a bid, based on that person's -- knowledge of business and submitting a number. There's a deadline. And so -- so the opportunity, I think, is there for everyone to be equalized during the purchasing process.
>> could I make a statement, also, please. I want to make it very clear, we didn't come here just for mr. Clem brown, initially we were told that this meeting would be held at 2:00. So we would have had more guys here because it was planned for us to be here at 2:00. Some of the guys are the guys that actually bid the project. I had bid [inaudible] with them. Also, again, it's not about mr. Brown, okay? It's about inclusion.
>> uh-huh.
>> that's all we ask the opportunity.
>> yeah.
>> I totally agree.
>> ability to give us the opportunity to negotiate.
>> I totally agree.
>> just like you negotiate with everyone else.
>> yes, sir.
>> if the price is objective, let us know. You know, like I told mr. Hutchinson, we want to be able to bid to you in the future. However, we have to address the present.
>> uh-huh.
>> bidding the job is free. It's time consuming, very expensive for a small contractor who have -- you have [inaudible], you have estimates, time is very important to us.
>> yes, it is.
>> so extend me the courtesy to tell me what did I do wrong this time? So next time I will do it right.
>> I think it all comes down to prices. And I think that the --
>> that's right.
>> -- the purchasing agent if you would explain again the price, the bids and how they came in, it's about money. It's with taxpayer -- it's about taxpayer money.
>> I fully understand.
>> everyone given the opportunity to submit a bid that no one else has influenced. It comes in, they were all evaluated according to the price and the quality of the work. Would you go over that process.
>> mr. Brown, the chair recognizes commissioner Sonleitner.
>> technical question.
>> we need to spend about five more minutes on this --
>> yes. I'm coming up on almost 8 years on this commissioners court. And when I hear the words that there is a bid protest, I think, and Margaret correct me, without exception, the ones that I have dealt with on this court related to a bid protest is for someone who is usually either number 2 or number 3 or perhaps even number 4, alleging that there was something not correctly done related to the actual bidding process. That there was a -- there was an error, something wasn't added up correctly and it's usually that kind of thing that you hear in terms of that's a bid protest. This is way different from that. And I'm just -- I just want to reconfirm, sid, please, in terms of what we have before us today, are there any concerns raised by anyone that somehow the bidding process was anything less than by the book and what is being recommended is the low bid and even with the add-ones is the lowest and best bid.
>> you are absolutely correct.
>> therefore if there concerns or desires or goals for there to be an increase in h.u.b. Participation, that is a matter between mr. Hutchinson and whomever, be it mr. Brown or anyone else out there in the community for him to get to the final and best place, knowing that he would have to, no matter what, meet this award of $4.5 million in terms of doing the work for the county and to meet his contractual obligations; is that correct?
>> that's correct.
>> so --
>> but I disagree. Because in the 13 years that i've been associated with county government, any residents of Travis County has the right to come down --
>> I'm not denying that they have the right [multiple voices]
>> to discuss any matter that he or she chooses, one.
>> sure.
>> two is if this gentleman submitted a bid, he has a right to come down here and tell us that he thinks he should have been chosen. Now, that doesn't mean that we have to agree with it. But has he a right to come down and -- he has a right to come down and do that. Certain the president of the african american contracting association, I forget the name there, has a right to come down here and express concerns to us. We don't have to agree. I don't know that we ought to fault them for coming down.
>> judge. That was not what I was --
>> this raises a legal question. But if this gentleman submitted a bid and it was highest of the 12 submitted, then it doesn't do Travis County residents or the commissioners court any good to choose it. But further he is saying that -- are you saying just on this bid or historically you all have not gun negotiated with -- not been negotiated with as subcontractors.
>> that's correct.
>> we ought to do what we can to promote the negotiation. At the same time, our interest is in getting the lowest price. So mr. Hutchinson is right on that. He worked on another project with us, the exposition center, did a fine job out there. We know you will do an outstanding job on this one. But we would not have a goal or a h.u.b. Program or a h.u.b. Staff if we were not interested in promoting h.u.b. Participation. At the same time, we are not interested in promoting the highest price. We are interested in proposing the lowest price. So I'm just disagreeing that -- I think these gentlemen are right to come down here and express their concerns. Now, we have a right to disagree with them. They understand that.
>> judge, that was not what I was saying. I just wanted to be very clear in my mind as to what the nature of the protest was. I am not at all questioning -- [multiple voices] or anyone else does --
>> the question implied that this issue is a whole lot more narrow than their expressing concern about not being negotiated with previously. Not being negotiated with as to this contract. And their concern about efforts to negotiate in the future, also? With mr. Hutchinson as well as other contractors in our community. And on county bids, I think if nothing else, we ought to have contract negotiating with subcontractors of all races, whoever meets the h.u.b. Definition. When they come to us, though, we put pressure on them to give us the lowest price. Around if they come and say -- and if they come and say mr. So and so considered, a bid, -- submitted a bid, I considered that, I didn't choose it. We have to go along with that. We never picked the highest price here unless we disqualified those are lower. My only question is mr. Hutchinson whether you would share with purchasing the concrete part the bids that you got from the subs so we can see that in fact mr. Brown's bid was substantially higher than the others or higher. It would help me just to know that.
>> absolutely.
>> okay.
>> and my final thing related to this, mr. Brown, you are a subcontractor, you are not one of the eight peppers who bid; is that correct?
>> that's correct. I'm a concrete subcontractor.
>> I'm just trying to get clarity. Please do not misinterpret my question as anything other than trying to get clarities on to what we are doing. I'm also looking at the spread sheet provided to us from purchasing about checking off everything. I am seeing under every single one of the eight companies that bid, under h.u.b. Goal it says to be determined. Did we have an idea on all of these 8 companies what their final and best h.u.b. Participation would be the day that they turned in their bids?
>> we have an estimate at bid opening. Whoever the low bidder then, then goes out as mr. Hutchinson talked about, negotiates the best price with all of the people that bid to him. Then before the project starts we get those final numbers.
>> is it fair to say that's a base, but by no means the ceiling in terms of what the final participation may be. We know at a minimum.
>> but we know after the -- after he's negotiated with all of the h.u.b.s, what it would be.
>> right.
>> I'm just -- that's --
>> I have -- [multiple voices]
>> I have --
>> I have just a couple more questions. Take five more minutes. I'm going to stay within that time constraint. Mr. Brown, could you please tell me, sir, the name of the organization that you represent?
>> I'm Austin metropolitan united black contractors association.
>> united black contractors association.
>> that's correct.
>> do you know whether or not any of the membership within your organization also submitted bids for this particular subcontractor work?
>> very much so, sir.
>> could you tell me about how many?
>> about eight altogether. And eight of them were supposed to be here at 2:00. That's what you told us. But they weren't able to be here at 10:30. We were informed that -- about 9:30 or 9:45 that it's changed to 10:30.
>> I would like --
>> the reason I estimated 2:00 was I thought that it would take us that long to get to it. We came here this morning and put 85% of the agenda on consent. We dealt with it in 60 seconds rather than --
>> could I say one more -- I just want to make it very clear, this is the first time that I heard about bid protest. We didn't come here to protest a bid.
>> thank you. That was what was --
>> we came here to talk about opportunity for african american contractors.
>> uh-huh.
>> on this project and future projects. Again, we did that because your historical data and I taped this data from your organization, county, that goes -- goes back to fiscal year 1999, Friday football fever americans [inaudible]% of the project, 2000.73%, 2001, .66, so for 2002, .06%. So far. Now, you take that and compare it to the rest of the ethnicity, very poor. And so we are asking can we improve on this. Do we have an avenue to improve on this. Again, I commend your h.u.b. Division for doing a good job. But -- but it takes more than them to make it happen. We are saying what do we need to do? We are here to say we are hear to help. We have the contractors that want to do the job. What do we do? Because we are trying, trying is not working. > sure.
>> commissioner daugherty?
>> I will be real brief. You know, seems like the problem that we have here is if we are going to put this bid information out, that we are going to have to be a lot less ambiguous. You know, the -- what's the word that gotten us in trouble here is voluntary.
>> because it is.
>> if it's the wish of the court to change that, well, then so be it. By I have built projects, I didn't know even if I saw hispanic last name, I didn't know whether they were a w.b.e. Or an m.b.e. Because maybe they are not registered as one. So if it's going to be the court's desire, I mean, let's -- let's really call what we want, I mean, if you want a 30%, then let's make it definitive and then let's find something on the application that says, you know, brown is an african american, garcia is a registered w.b.e., M.b.e. Hispanic. I mean, so you know. If that's -- because if you are asking somebody to say, hey, come in and give us a low bid, I can see where you would get a piece of information, these bid, say I don't know what these people are. I mean, I'm not basing, you know, anything other than can they do the work and this is price something that I can live with so I can turn this thing in. Seems to me like, maybe this is a legal question that we have in executive session where I mean perhaps we give purchasing, hey, you have got one more sheet to hand out, whatever all this bid process, so somebody knows, okay, I have really got to meet 30%. And i'll meet it. If I know, you know, who -- who these people are. So -- so that's -- I mean, I think it's a pretty easy thing to solve. Unfortunately at this juncture we may not be able to go back and rectify this thing. I don't know if the contract has been done, all of this kind of stuff, sid, but I would be real interested in talking to the court to find out where we would be.
>> I think we ought to get a legal clarification from legal counsel in executive session this afternoon.
>> I have a couple of comments left, judge, that I would like to make.
>> I don't know whether that's going to happen because I think the lawyer will really answer the question for us.
>> we have been restricted by the law for years, bs but that's -- [multiple voices]
>> I think we automatic to see the wording on the h.u.b. Pars -- we automatic to see the -- we ought to see the wording on the h.u.b. Association. You certainly helped the h.u.b.s or community because we went from 2 to 23 something, we appreciate you doing that. Under consultation with legal counsel, we will bring this item up this afternoon executive session. If we are going to have the 11:00 item we need to take it right now.
>> judge, I don't want to leave you with the impression that we are not doing the -- doing business with any black h.u.b. Firms. We had 14 black contractors this year that we used as h.u.b.s. We've had many others that we have used as prime.
>> well, but the percentages in construction have always been low.
>> uh-huh.
>> we don't know what the availability is, judge. That's why [multiple voices]
>> it came from -- it came from the h.u.b. Office.
>> those are the ones that I have seen over the last three or four years. We ought to do better. They are coming down here asking for help for the future. They are not necessarily criticizing us in the past, but they have reminded us of a fact. And that is in construction the african american firms in our community have not gotten many projects historically, but they are few in number, which is your point, I agree with that. Further discussion will wait until this afternoon.
>> I want to thank you all --
>> 11:00.
>> thank you.
>> thank you.
Last Modified: Wednesday, April 2, 2003 10:25 AM