Travis County Commissioners Court
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 (Agenda)
Item 3
Number 3 is to consider and take appropriate action on an order concerning outdoor burning in the unincorporated areas of Travis County.
mr. Lee?
>> good morning, judge, Commissioners, herschel lee, Travis County fire marshal.
>> good morning, herschel.
>> the current drought index for Travis County on average is 496 and --
>> 496?
>> that's down significantly from what it was last week when we just talked about it.
due to the one inch of rain that Travis County received after the burn ban was lifted.
I spoken to the fire chiefs and they are running a lot of smoke calls, fire calls, but these -- the county fire chiefs have not reported that any of the calls they have been to, the fires were out of the control area.
but now afd reported that there were three fires outside of the controlled area.
>> I'm sorry.
>> Austin fire department.
>> okay.
the long range forecast for our area continues to be drier than normal, shorter than normal.
the forecast is cool days, seven to 15 miles an hour winds and another chance of rain over the next weekend.
given the long range forecast and current condition, I think this may be the best opportunity for citizens to create that defensible space, we're asking them to create.
but now having said that, there are times and places where it will never be okay to burn.
one of the reasons that we encourage citizens to call the fire departments, consult with them, they can call my office, if we need to go and look at a site we can do that.
a person that -- that starts a fire has to know that -- that that fire is -- is in or under their control.
at all times.
if a fire gets out and crosses the line, property line or damages someone else's property, it was not under control.
and some of the neighborhoods where the lots are smaller, you will never have enough room to burn.
where there's even -- even when the burn ban has been lifted for a long period of time.
there just is not room between homes on small lot subdivisions for that burning to occur.
in some places, people have allowed brush to accumulate into very large piles and they set that entire pile on fire one time, that is not a good idea.
but my recommendation to you is to allow people to burn for another week, this is after looking at the forecasts and talking to the fire chiefs, knowing over the last several months we have been getting calls about getting calls about what too we do with this accumulated waste.
reminds me of a scenario where I inspected a museum and found hazardous material there, the fire department said they couldn't have it, the transportation code said they couldn't move it.
people are kind of in that scenario in that they have accumulated waste over a long period of time and it's dangerous and -- and the most inexpensive way for them to get rid of that is burning when it can be done safely.
so my recommendation is -- is to leave the burn ban off for another week and re-evaluate it next week.
>> let me ask you this.
I know we try to -- we try to recommend steps that can be taken to burn safely.
but -- but can we put together something more specific when you are burning accumulated brush and -- and -- the calls that I got really went to that.
that -- that brush, ash, debris, has accumulated and the neighbor is burning it.
so I mean is there a way for us to focus on if you burn a pile of brush, here are the steps that you should take.
or do we think the broad recommendations would cover that anyway?
>> well, I think that the broad brush probably should cover it.
but there -- again, we can do our best to create a document and -- and publish to our website.
which -- which provides some guidelines for those things.
Texas commission on environmental equality already has rules that we are linked to.
again those are to what our -- to what our local recommendations are.
it gets down to the point of people be responsible for what they are doing, the actions that they are taking.
and -- and because of the volume that we are dealing with in the you think unincorpod Travis County it is very difficult to monitor that completely.
>> if you burn a pile of brush, what's to keep you from trying to create a safe space around it?
is that part of our recommendation?
>> it is.
it's 50 feet of clearance to anything around it.
or -- especially to structures.
as far as how far you need to be from something in order to -- in order to burn a pile.
but now that -- that has in mind, having a small fire.
that's not the large land clearing type of brush piles that that's addressing.
a large brush pile, if you are clearing 10 to 50-acres, that should be burned in very small piles as well.
to prevent the very thing that you are describing where ash is falling on a neighbor's property.
it should be -- it should be -- the thermal column created by a large fire carries ash very high in the air and then any wind that's aloft will ship that ash across our property line.
the advantage, if there is any, currently, is that -- is that conditions with high humidity are such that generally the -- the ash is just that.
it's no longer a burning ember when it falls.
and if burning embers are falling across the property line, your fire is just too big and you should not be doing that.
>> thank you, judge.
well, are we still in the -- as far as the public -- those that are doing the burning, and in concert with the idea of continuing to notify the esd's or notify someone that will be able to actually monitor that, at least let them know that they are actually participating in a control burn situation because that's -- as stated earlier, you are going to make sure that this doesn't spread to other -- other areas that -- that maybe fuel already to -- to promote another fire.
so -- so the question is of the esd's that are -- whomever is -- is in charge of that area, continually recommended that they be notified.
dealing with these particular controlled burns.
>> you are correct, Commissioner.
the -- the -- speaking to the -- speaking to the local fire chiefs, they want to know about the burn before the fire starts.
in one particular incident, one of the fire chiefs said he got a call but by the time he got the call the fire was already going.
>> going, right.
>> had he gotten the call, and -- before the -- before they started the fire, he would have told them no.
because this was on the day when the front was almost here and the winds were up too high for them to have been burning safely.
so, yes, they do need to continue to notify the local fire departments of the burning.
if the wind is up, the fire chief is going to tell them don't burn yet.
wait until the wind dies down.
>> wind dies down, right.
we have some pretty -- thank you.
I wanted to ask you a question about the drought index, because it's an average, right, from across the county.
>> that's correct.
>> I have concerns, serious concerns about the -- about the high fuel loads we have in western Travis County where the cedar is actually dead.
and the ability, the fire departments, to get in and fight a fire where the cedar is dense.
I'm talking private lands, privately held lands by and large.
is there any -- to me, I asked the question, is there -- it seems like there's a greater risk in those areas than in open space areas even if the drought index were the same, for example, because fire trucks can get in.
and/or the equipment can get in to fight it.
do we -- how do we deal with that -- with that difference.
those -- those vegetation differences when we are looking at drought indexes because I'm kind of curious where the -- where these -- where these samplings are taken for the drought index, because I would wonder if -- if, for example, the large swath that's probably a mile long and a half mile wide of dead cedar is immediately across the creek from my house would measure anywhere close to 496.
so how -- how are those taken, where are they taken, and is there any consideration given in that process to where the high and risky fuel loads are.
>> the -- the kbi index measures fuel moisture and fuels that are within eight inches of the ground basically.
typically, these are very small fuels, of course sometimes there are heavy fuels that are lying on the ground.
the progression of fire generally is that the small fuels ignite, as they ignite they produce a heat that is sufficient then to ignite a larger or higher fuel, a taller fuel.
so -- so you are right, there are some areas -- there are some areas in Travis County, especially in western Travis County, where because of terrain and -- and -- and products such as the -- as the ash juniper that it's just not a good idea to have a big fire at all.
but -- but if you are going to burn, you have to use best case scenario.
or -- or if we want -- it weighs on my mind heavily to come up here and say let's get rid of this while we can.
because at the same time I come up here and I generally want to tell you, I want to err on the side of safety.
taking all of those things into consideration, I think this is the best opportunity that we have had in a long time.
it may be the best opportunity we have for another considerable period of time.
but your concern is very valid.
in that there are areas in western Travis County that a fire truck is for the going to get to.
they almost have to wait until the fire comes out to them.
>> when you say it's not a good idea, if we don't have the burn ban in place, can -- can the fire chiefs legally tell someone no, you can't burn in that location, it's not safe.
>> I think they can make that recommendation.
if a fire is started and it could -- and this is an area that's kind of untested.
but reckless conduct or reckless damage and destruction are possible penalties that people could face if they start a fire in a place where they have been told or they should have known better than to start a fire.
do the chiefs support the -- having the fire ban listed.
one chief out in western Travis County told me they had been running ragged the last week, chasing the citizens calls on -- on smoke that they had seen.
the fire departments were stressed anyway from an expense standpoint from the recent wildfires, I just was curious where the chiefs were.
>> I heard from western Travis County, I heard from -- I heard from four different chiefs directly and -- and others that -- that I made calls to and each one of them agreed that it would be okay to -- to allow the ban to stay off for another week.
I had multiple calls, more unhappy with the ban being lifted than those who were happy, but I did have some that were glad.
given the fact that the drought index deals with the eight inches from the ground monitoring, and that we've got huge swaths of dead cedar where it would be very difficult to fight a fire in western Travis County, given my own observations and experience last week where -- where there was a burn about a half a mile away from my house, which -- which I thought was -- was way too large for the location, I actually went over there and observed i, I called the fire department, we have well water out there.
if that fire had gotten the least bit out of control there would have been no way the water resource would have dealt with that.
and ash was being carried half a mile.
I don't see how I can support not putting the burn ban back in place.
I think it's way too risky on the western side of town where the vehicles can't get to it to fight it.
so -- so -- that's the way I feel about it.
in the last illustration where we lift the burn ban, if there were a significant amount of calls made to your office or esd's prior to -- prior to the -- prior to the burning of the -- of a controlled burn.
do they actually notify it, say listen this is what we are going to do.
of course -- of course if you are going to do that, you notify the proper authorities, they inspect your situation, before you even start the burn, that's some of the prevent active safeguards that are -- that are in place that folks should abide by, by proper notification to ensure that those levels of safety are met prior to the burn.
I asked last time this came before the court, to give -- to give telephone numbers to -- to -- where persons could -- could contact the proper authorities to make sure that before you ignite it, your fuel, that what you are going to burn, that you notify somebody so -- so they may be able to come out and of course in some areas it's kind of difficult to get to certain area, but I think notification of -- and I let you speak to that, because -- because there are some areas that -- that esd's are -- you can maybe elaborate on that.
but I want to make sure that -- that the number that you gave before as far as contacting the person that -- out in the community that are going to have a controlled burn, go through the proper channels to make sure that happens.
that they do contact you directly or contact someone if they don't know who to contact where you can direct them for those contact information, because the winds were hot the other day.
I mean, Sunday I mean my goodness gracious, they were terribly high.
of course with winds being that high, I mean it just -- it doesn't seem right for anybody to be doing any burning at that time.
so I'm just trying to make sure that we put all of the apples and oranges together around -- and at least separate them whereby we are able to deal with this in a safe manner.
so could you maybe elaborate on that just a little bit for us, to break that down under certain conditions, what people are expected to do out there.
>> sure.
I know even as late as yesterday at noon, in my office, I was -- I was talking to -- to my administrative assistant, while we were talking she received three calls from people wanting to know was the burn ban still lifted, was it okay.
in each case she would tell them you have to notify your local fire department.
in two of those three cases they did not know the number, she provided them the number for their local esd fire chief, so that they could call in.
again, people -- people can call our office if you don't know which emergency services district you are in or which fire department you need to call.
call my office, 854-4621, give your 911 address, my office can provide you with the information of the local authority that would be responsible for fire.
the number that you should call to report that.
the fire chiefs that I have spoken to and all of them but one said they had a lot of calls.
and one of them, northeast Travis County, said well, we only had two.
so -- so I guess so I guess it varies, depending upon where people were and what they were doing.
but -- but especially in western Travis County.
there were -- the fire chief said there were a lot of calls.
people called, you know, to -- to say hey we're going to burn.
and then the -- then the -- the other people, neighbors, we see the smoke, smell the smoke, or would be of concern, call the fire department and they would wind up going and checking on quite a number of those fires anyway.
>> okay.
>> judge, I have a couple more things.
first of all, I just wanted to add that -- that one of -- along with my other concerns that I have already mentioned is the fact that we have made a big deal out of our fire-wise program and defensible space around the house and people -- the high anxiety level out there with people about creating defensible space around their house, which is very important, along with that, though, is a naivety of the understanding of the dynamics of burning a fire with a lot of people or burning that vegetation after its cut.
I think that we're at high risk from people not fully understanding those dynamics when they go to burn what they have cut and they are not experienced at dealing with this, they are not experienced at getting their fire put out completely.
and that a wind can really blow sparks a long way and then I didn't mention when we were talking about the eight inches from the ground, the fact that the dead cedar is so explosive to a spark.
that's about eight inches, it can carry it a long way, it just goes like that.
so that -- I just wanted to make that point because anybody, the burn ban is not in effect.
people should really start small.
and -- and not risk getting a fire that's too large right out of the chute.
being sure that it's completely out.
I have seen a fire start that's been covered completely in dirt from wind whipping the coals.
so that's a warning.
but then the other thing that I had a question about was legally if the -- if there's not a burn ban in place and we are right at four points below the 500 mark on the drought index, which could conceivably jump up before next Tuesday, for example.
if we have -- have extreme conditions and experiences that are concerning, is there a legal authority that the judge can do something between today and next week or in a period where we haven't put a burn ban in place to -- to put one in place until the next meeting?
>> the judge could declare a local disaster, and declare a burn ban under chapter 418 of government code.
not using this statute.
that we ordinarily use for our burn bans.
but --
>> what constitutes the definition of disaster under that?
>> I believe it means the -- the eminent threat of -- of wide-spread or severe damage, injury, loss of life or property resulting from -- from any natural or man-made cause, including fire.
and in fact counties have used and I think even Travis County used to before we had a specific statute in the local government code, dealing with -- dealing with -- with burn bans or regulation of outdoor burning, people -- people have used the disaster act to implement burn bans.
so that's another way it can be done.
I might also add that you mentioned the -- being just under the 500 drought index.
Commissioners court, can implement a burn ban regardless of -- you don't have to -- to base your burn bans on the drought index.
there's two different ways under the statute that you can do it.
we have typically used the other way and that is that the -- that the court makes a determination that the circumstances that are present in the -- in the county create a dangerous condition that would be exacerbated by outdoor burning.
>> do we have any ability under the statute to -- to -- to -- to declare a burn ban in one part of the county but not another?
>> no.
>> yes.
>> yes, you can.
you can prohibit or restrict burning in certain areas of the county and not in others.
it's something that I haven't seen the county do in -- in -- in the 20 years or so that I've been -- that I've been involved in these, drafting these burn bans, but it is something that you can do but I think the concern, what concern that I've heard expressed in the past is about how do you get the word out about people -- possible confusion about whether people are in an area where it is or is not, whether the ban is in effect or not.
but that is possible, yes.
>> would that give you a -- a -- herschel, as the fire marshal, would that be useful to you to be able to separate out western Travis County?
because, you know, I'm mindful of what the constituents have been saying that the -- that the fuel loads in western Travis County and the ability to access are significantly different.
since there's -- since we're just counting them up from the esd map, there's 20 separate firefighting organizations in Travis County.
noticing the appropriate one for the average resident is -- gosh, it's hard for me to figure out which esd covers which area, much less the average resident.
>> you are correct and dipping on the line that you picked, you pick the esd line, all of two can burn, but none of one can burn.
I think it would be confusing to the citizens.
but if that's the will of the court, we will definitely do our best to enforce it.
it would be an educational thing for us, for the meyer fire marshal's office to assist the county sheriffs and the constables, other law enforcement agencies to -- to understand if we shift from county-wide burn, no burn, to area burn, no burn.
it would be an educational thing.
but it's something that could be done if that's what the court decides to do.
and I -- the scenario will always be that one portion of the county is in greater danger than others.
when the -- when the milo has been cut, the stubble and corn are out there, then that area has a greater danger now than the area with the ash juniper.
right now that area is all turned under and you couldn't burn it, when the ash juniper is the greater hazard now.
so -- so I think it would be -- it would be -- it would just be different from what we are doing right now.
but if that's the decision that the court chooses to go, we will definitely follow the pleasure of the court.
>> it -- it may be possible, and I -- also to fashion a -- to fashion a burn ban order that -- that would apply on days when -- when the wind is expected to be above a certain level.
in other words, that -- I mean, the statute says that you can prohibit or restrict outdoor burning.
and I guess that -- that if we think about this, and it may be that we can -- we can get creative and fashion a -- an order that would restrict burning to permit it on -- on certain types of days, but prohibit it on other days.
again, I think that the -- that the challenge there is going to be enforcement and how do people know and what would you gear it to exactly.
but, you know, that's something to think about.
>> well, see, I think Commissioner, she had valid concern, Commissioner Huber does.
I understand where she's coming from.
of course, notification as far as persons dealing with the control burn, not notifying the proper authorities to -- to prevent that from happening is a whole nother issue in my opinion.
but it's something that I think that we need to consider.
but then again how do you get the word out?
that's the -- that seems to be the crux of the matter.
everyone that I have known -- everyone not knowing exactly what the rules are.
how -- when and what to burn and who to notify to burn.
all of those things kind of get in an intertwined situation here.
notification is very critical.
I think she laid out a good point.
right down the street from her.
someone burning and of course the wind is high and ambers all over the place and of course people are still in -- in harm's way from the last situation we had out there.
so -- so it stands to reason that we need to do something to address all of it.
and yet still operate in the -- in the safe mode, but I think notification, as I stated earlier, is -- is part of the process as far as when to burn and if you can burn.
that's the whole point.
if you really are able to burn under certain conditions, you shouldn't.
so ...
>> do we think that we can come up with a draft order between now and say 2:00 this afternoon?
draft order that -- that -- that basically prohibits burning maybe certain geographic areas and I think that I would want to know the reasons, because I anticipate phone calls from areas that are not banned and questions about the reasons why.
and if we look at wind velocity, what language would be appropriate, I guess the question would be whether we base it on the forecast or the actual observable winds.
but if we consider that, I think we ought to have a draft order before us so we can look at the particular language.
and -- and my guess is we would be able to reach it by 2:00 or 2:30 this afternoon if we try to do it.
>> okay.
it's okay with me.
>> he said yes.
>> yes.
I could do that.
>> I think that we would need to take it into executive session under consultation with attorney, also, to try to figure out exactly what our options are legally.
before taking action.
anything he will now?
anything else now?
>> if we're going to have this before legal --
>> I have just a question, just to gear us up for this afternoon.
probably the wind velocity provision inside of a burn ban won't be difficult to get to.
I hear what you are saying about the geographic.
I'm just looking at the map.
I suppose that we should discuss some options.
you are absolutely right.
it would be very tricky to come up with a -- with a geographic line.
I was just running scenarios based on the map, there are all kinds of -- any scenario is shot through with exceptions because -- because of the different jurisdictions.
>> you're right.
and -- and I would have to say to a large degree, I agree with Commissioner Huber.
and -- and my house had ashes falling on it during a large fire.
which is very alarming.
to me.
>> yeah.
>> but in speaking to the efd 78 fire chief last night, most of his calls are coming from people within that burn area that is already burned and they are wanting to clear that stuff, that suffered fire damage during that fire?
fire -- from that fire.
so that's where there's a great desire right now to burn.
as you.ed out the people that want to protect property, there's a -- it's a very strong desire from each side.
>> you have a difficult balancing act.
>> yeah.
is there any way to -- to package a burn ban such that -- such that fire chief is -- the burn ban is in place and -- that gives the fire chief the authority to -- to allow specific burns when it's been determined by the fire chief?
or the fire marshal, that it is -- that it is safe and conditions are safe?
where the burning is an exception rather than the rule?
>> I think it might be.
that could be part of the -- part of the -- but -- within the court's authority to restrict outdoor burning under -- and allow it and in other words under certain conditions.
that would be one of the conditions.
that they -- that they -- before the burn that they get approval or -- or permission from some authority, either the fire marshal, the --
>> I know we need to get rid of the fuel.
it's out there when we can.
we are looking at a long, long, long dry period.
I understand that side of the equation.
I just feel like we need to have a tighter controls so that we don't run the risk of wildfire from someone who is naive about what they are doing.
>>
>> [indiscernible].
I'm danny hobby, I'm the county executive for emergency services and I think jim I think that's kind of where -- where I would like to go with this, too, is making sure that whatever decision is made by the court, that we take into consideration the fire chiefs and responsibilities that they have and that whatever we decide impacts them greatly as far as their time and their energy and -- and that -- I like the idea of where perhaps if we looked at -- at giving before anybody would actually be able to burn, that they would have to have permission by the fire chief in that district and that way at least you have got some control of that.
but again those are just scenarios.
I think we need to be looking at.
if we have that flexibility, I think the fire chiefs would much prefer having that -- having that authority, if they can have that authority, along with the fire marshal's office.
but I just think there's some things due to the -- due to the conditions that we have and we know that we're going to have in the future, we've got to change how we're doing things.
we have to adjust to that.
so what we have done in the past really doesn't in my mind address the future.
and so we need to -- we need to consider all factors and all stakeholders and especially our residents.
>> one of the problems, though, along with other problems, it's many, but -- is to ensure what you just stated danny.
that's been brought up before.
is if -- if the situation is whereby you have a controlled burn situation, as we stated earlier, and the person calls to get permission to burn and maybe this esd or whoever is to oversee the operation of that burn to make sure that the -- that the wind factors, all of these other factors are in play before the person starts burning, the deployment of those individuals sometimes can be -- can be not available the way they should be.
so does that mean that -- that other esd's would have to -- to assist to -- to ensure that -- that the safety measures are -- are adhered to within the constraints of a control burn before it happens, whether the factor is wind or whatever, whatever those factors may be.
if that is parts of this, some esd's are smaller than others as far as having the operation to get out and deal with this, so it may have to be a situation whereby assistance from esd's have to even come into play, whomever is in charge of.
you mentioned the -- the other -- the other maybe law enforcement type of situations.
it just appeared there was going to have to be a cross-section of support to ensure that all of these things take place.
if we're going to ensure that to ensure that the burn don't happen to make sure that the conditions and setting isn't proper to proceed with that burn.
any way to get us a draft document by 1:15, give us 15 minutes to review it before we reconvene at 1:30, I hereby indicate our intention to call up this item.
regarding the fire ban.
at 3:00.
item no.
3, rather.
in executive session, first this afternoon when we get to the executive session items. And -- and looks like that will be 2 or later, but if we could get a draft to review around 1:15 that would be helpful.
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