Travis County Commissioners Court
November 24, 2009,
Item 17
17.
discuss and take appropriate action on the adoption of fire code civil penalty guidelines for Travis County.
let's indicate our intention to call up the joe cantalupo item next.
for those here posted on the -- here for the item posted on 10:30.
when we post it like that, bylaw we have to call it up not sooner than 10:30.
so it will be at least 10:30 before we call up item no.
5 a and b.
good morning.
>> good morning.
i'm danny hobby, I'm executive manager of emergency services.
to my left, to your right is Travis County fire marshall herschel lee.
we should be expecting gary martin with the county attorney's office to join us as we go through this item.
what we have before you today is your consideration of adopting some guidelines regarding fire code civil penalty guidelines for Travis County.
just to kind of introduce this so that people that are listening will understand what we're talking about is back in February of 2005 Travis County adopted and approved for the first time a fire code.
and of course along with that fire code came certain elements of which we would then need to implement in order to protect our citizenry and residents in regards to building things.
and making them safe.
and so as a result of that, there was also a phase that -- a penalty phase that was adopted in may of that year.
and so since then we have been trying to as best we can, implement this fire code that again will make it fair and reasonable but also safe for our residents.
when it comes to construction of things, building of things in Travis County.
we're talking about the unincorporated areas of Travis County.
although in the incorporated we also have agreements now with some small cities in regards to assisting them in regards to fire code -- the fire code itself.
i would like to outline this in several components.
one is that -- for the majority what was we do out there, I'll let the fire marshal speak on behalf of a lot of this, just interrupt any time that you wish to, fire marshal, that 99% of the time things go real well.
and people do things as they should when they are going out and looking at -- looking at construction and building -- developing sites for new businesses.
as well as looking at daycare centers, as well as looking at schools, all this -- all these things we are involved in and for the -- for most cases we're proud of the fact that people do things in accordance with the rules.
and of course following the fire code.
it reminds me of when I was president of a tennis umpire association, often people asked me why would you do such a thankless job of wanting to umpire tennis matches when people with attitudes sometimes aren't very good.
well, it was for the integrity of the sport.
that's why we do the fire code.
it's for the integrity of building things, constructing things in a way that is safe for our residents.
what we have to do, though, is realize that there's a very small group of folks that either through lack of understanding, education, or just simply having difficulty making ends meet, decide that they choose not to follow the fire code and so therefore it's important for us to balance that out, recognizing that they have certain rights, that our residents have certain rights in regards to their safety and welfare.
so what we have been doing over the past several years, through our experience in dealing with these particular -- with this particular issue, again very small, in coming up with guidelines that we think will be fair and balanced but will also get us to where we need to be.
that is making sure at the end of the day that we're doing things in a safe manner and that we are following guidelines that are for the purpose of making things safe.
and it's for all of the elements that I just talked about, it's for the actual people that are building, for the actual people that are occupying the space and our residents that actually go and enjoy those -- those particular facilities.
so what we've presented is a -- really a -- a think tank of where we got together and established through some research and also through -- also through some -- some evaluation of what other people are doing, we came up with the guidelines that you have before you, which is basic instructions but also a matrix which we feel like outlines those particular violations that occur.
and a scoring mechanism to where we can actually explain to people, this is the benefit of having the guidelines, really, is to -- to educate people beforehand as to what the guidelines are, so that before they ever want to begin anything, then they start off right and they have a real understanding of where we're coming from.
so therefore if they then choose to violate, it's a situation of where we then will -- will enforce those guidelines.
now, the guidelines themselves are strictly guidelines because it's still up to the county attorney's office and to this court as to what you would do in regards to certain circumstances.
and so what you see in the guidelines are some things that -- of which we think are going to encourage people to really follow the rules in regards to our fire code.
and so -- so as a result you are going to see things I hope that will be working in a -- in a more -- what I consider to be a cooperative manner.
and again we're only talking about a very small percentage of folks.
but yet it's important enough for us to come up with these guidelines so that we do take care of that.
and that we're prepared to move in the direction of everyone complying with the fire code.
i'll turn it over to the fire marshal if he has anything that he would like to add in regards to this.
i do want to end by simply saying my part is that we would test this, this would be something of where we would review it after a period of time to make sure that it is meeting what we consider to be the goal here.
of -- of having a set of guidelines that are fair and that do work for our community.
and so this is not something that we're just -- just because we approve it today we wouldn't come back to you and ask for revisions if needed.
and we would continue to work with the county Commissioners office, with the county attorney's office in regards to these kind of things.
so fire marshal, I will be quiet.
>> thank you, sir.
and our goal in the fire marshal's office is not to make this a revenue type of thing.
but -- but rather to -- to -- a means if someone just decides that they are going to take forever to comply, refuse to comply, this is a means to assist them along the lines of encouraging them to comply.
every day when we do inspections out in the field, it's very easy to find minor violations.
and most of those the violator simply didn't know it was a violation or they needed to be educated as to why they need to correct or why they need to maintain or why the door needs to swing the other way.
once people are educated and they understand why the fire code is in place, what it's designed to do and if they are given time, they will comply.
given time an opportunity and understanding, they will comply.
but that's not always the case.
over the last 18 months, I have -- I have been on a number of bulletin boards, a number of international conferences and asking people, well, what are you doing about this?
everyone basically sends me their rules.
we have the rules.
we've had the rules if a while.
now we have people who won't comply, what are you doing?
one of the -- one of the reasons that I think this really hasn't gone very far in the state of Texas is that there are only 11 counties in Texas that have a county fire marshall that have adopted a fire code.
and so -- so one of those was just in the last year.
so -- so of those that when I talk to them, they typically say well we are able to control utilities, that's not an option for us.
cities typically use class c misdemeanors in municipal court to -- to enforce fire codes.
so the penalties basically are -- are -- vary from $200 a day to $2,000 a day for -- for cities.
so this concept is new.
and the last 10 days the responses that we have been getting from these bulletin board inquiries are when you get it working, we want to see how it works.
so this is -- this is -- in east Texas we would say this is plowing new ground.
this is -- it's a good idea, it's something that needs to be developed.
it has had quite a bit of thought put into it and speaking to different individuals has been pointed out to us and rightly so that -- that we need something in place that will -- that will quantify a violation.
are they storing something indoors that is a danger to everybody indoors or do they have a light bulb out that they want fixed?
and we need some way to quantify those things.
in reviewing this and wording much of it written by the county attorney's office, I believe this will accomplish that.
so if you have -- if you have questions about -- about -- also a number of esd's in Travis County have adopted fire codes, they are using class c misdemeanors as their penalty base, but there's no -- they have not had a lot of need for actually going forward with actually filing cases.
they have been able to mediate their cases to the court and not actually seek a lot of punishment.
so if you have questions, I will be glad to try to answer.
>> I know -- thank you.
excuse me -- for coming up with this.
my concern, though, is about compliance.
compliance meaning that if there's a person that is not in compliance or have violated the fire code, what -- what is the -- what is the grace period or length of time that you work with this person to make sure that they correct this problem and sometimes there may be mitigating circumstances that they are unable to deal with stuff at the time.
however, I -- I assume that you -- you will continue to work with them the best you can.
and then again if it's still not in compliance, then something within reason I guess had to be done.
and so -- so I guess in -- in those particular situations I guess is there a -- a set time line or just depends on a case-by-case basis and the circumstances?
>> that's a good point, Commissioner.
i'm glad that you brought that up.
there are some things this we call immediate danger to life and health.
those type of things we'll say no, we're going to stop, you are going to fix this right now, these people are going to leave this building, you are going to fix this, you are going to correct this item and do it now or you are closed until you do that.
those -- once people understand that, they typically take care of those things.
>> okay.
>> there are other situations where we come across a change of use of an occupancy and people have done that without a permit and then once we find that, and address that, there may be a large dollar item such as a fire sprinkler system or something that needs to be installed.
well, as long as those people will come to us and talk to us and are in the -- in the process of designing this system and hiring a contractor to do those things that we need done and as long as they will communicate with us, we will continue to work with them.
typically, by having them request that we work with them and then we set a deadline to say this work will be done by a certain date and as long as they continue to go forward and meet those requirements, we continue to work with them.
the one that's we have issues with are the ones that just say -- they ignore our notices or they continue working on they will not come to talk to us about violations.
>> but the majority of those that -- that you are applying this particular code, basically, I want to make sure that everyone understand is that normally the majority is commercial.
>> yes, sir, that's correct.
>> vendors, because these are -- people -- folks that are listening to this saying uh-oh, wait a minute.
but this basically is applicable to the commercial venue mother than --
>> that's correct, it's aimed at commercial and public.
as a matter of fact we do not apply the fire code to one, two or three family dwellings.
>> dwellings, exactly.
>> a four-plex or greater that the fire code is -- applies to, that's regulation, state law.
so this is commercial and public buildings.
>> exactly.
okay.
thank you.
>> we clearly have the authority to adopt these guidelines and enforce them?
>> mr.
martin.
>> let the record show that lawyer garrett martin said yes to that question.
>>
>> [indiscernible] under the fire code that you adopted some years ago, you have enforcement and an enforcement chapter.
the way it essentially works is that if it's necessary to file suit to obtain injunctive relief, for example there is a refusal to comply, other than the -- the fire marshall's stop work orders.
for example if it's something to enforce that stop work order, construction is underway, then we come to the county attorney's office as referred by the fire marshal, danny hobby, then we come for resolution then we can file suit.
but an important part of the enforcement is the ability to collect civil penalties.
that's authorized under the --
>> this is a slightly new approach.
my recommendation would be that we post this on either December 8th or December 15th agenda to allow any comment that we might get.
and with an eye to implementation on, say, January 1.
start the year off with it.
how is that?
i don't expect -- I don't expect a lot of people to come, but you never know.
i would at least provide that opportunity.
>> uh-huh.
>> may I throw something out just in terms of framing the -- framing the possible comments that we get.
i want to applaud you gentlemen for -- for putting together a -- a vanguard approach here that comports with -- with your reputation for putting safety and compliance for safety purposes first above any kind of punitive or retribution type of scheme.
this is I think a holistic approach as danny hobby said at the beginning.
it really only goes to addressing that tiny percentage that simply will not ask for permission first frankly doesn't care about forgiveness later.
i think 80's very balanced -- I think it's a very balanced approach.
it's a civil approach not a criminal approach and I think the it will provide a level playing field.
commercial developers and multi-family builders will appreciate this rather than be frightened by it because it does level the playing field for those who do live by the rules as opposed to those who move forward and -- and wait for you to catch up to them.
>> two weeks from today is December 8th.
any objection to that?
>> not at all.
>> we will make it happen.
thank you all very much.
>> thank you.
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Last Modified:
Tuesday, November 24, 2009 1:40 PM
